Wealth As Motive

[MysteryReader]

I found a snippet of a letter written by someone anonymous to friends (and possible relatives) Willard Russell Sherman and his wife Clarinda Mary Macomber:

"It is a shocking thing and with its other Side, Shows that wealth creates much contention, if I am to be murdered it will not be for my riches and you can plainly see the folly of laying up Such a large lot of property, and not doing any possible good to our fellow man." (p. 36-37, Parallel Lives).

So there is one who at least believes that wealth was behind the double murders. I wonder what he would think of people today (if he lived in our time) who have either a lot of property or money

[Aamartin]

I believe the main motive was financial....

[Curryong]

I haven't got Parallel Lives (sob: please hurry) but from what I've read there seems to have been a feeling among those townspeople who believed or suspected Lizzie was guilty, that Lizzie was restricted in her life style because of her father's strong views on a no-frills existence. Her eyes may well have been opened after her European trip that there was another, much more exciting world out there.

I have changed my views in the months since I joined the Forum. I believed, and this is still a valid view held by many I guess, that Abby was killed first, by Lizzie, in a conscious act to prevent her from gaining any of Andrew's wealth if she survived him. This murder was followed by Andrew's to gain wealth and a new life. I no longer hold to that. I believe that Lizzie's hatred of Abby boiled over that Thursday morning in learning that some property of Andrew's was being transferred to her stepmother. I think John Morse was the conduit to that.

How do we know that he (Morse) didn't write to Emma on the subject of property transfer and Emma told Lizzie what was afoot while they were away on that journey to Fairhaven/ New Bedford? I do think Andrew was killed simply because Lizzie couldn't allow him to discover what she had done. The wealth didn't mean as much to her (and to Emma) as the possibility that Abby would get some of it. In the sisters' eyes Abby getting more and more as the years went on was becoming a real possibility.

[irina]

Another angle to add to understanding that bit of the letter could be that the writer felt a bit of envy. Then as now those who had less felt triumph in watching those deemed wealthy or successful take a serious fall. Andrew had a general reputation of being wealthy, sharp in business practices and a miser. There were a lot of nasty comments made right after the murders, some in the papers. Thus Lizzie was said to be massive and manly. Bridget was also described that way. It was assumed wealth was the motive and that Lizzie killed to gain wealth.

If she was guilty I think the motive(s) was/were much more complex.

[Curryong]

The Macombers were an early and prominent farming family in the Fall River area, MysteryReader.

. I think there were some people (more prevalent then) who believed that the garnishing of great wealth pointed to a worship of Mammon that wasn't to be admired. Andrew wasn't exactly known as a great philanthropist and so I suppose a deeply religious man might find some moral lesson in his murder. On the other hand, you may be right, irina, and it could be sheer envy!

[MysteryReader]

I did read that Abby got $200 a month but she mainly was to use hers to buy things for the household (such as curtains, etc.) while Emma and Lizzie also had $200 each to do with what they wanted.

Oh and it was suggested (since no one really knows about how the relationships really were inside the house) that Bridget was going to sacrifice her easy work for better a better living environment but Abby raised her wages (supposedly, that also came out of the $200).

Also, after Andrew sold the girls the house (the one they sold back to Andrew shortly before his death) was one that needed work and didn't bring in much money (from rent) to keep up with the work/repairs.

Curry, I so do hope you get yours soon! There are so much I want to discuss but I'm afraid of boring people here.

[irina]

Something disappeared here. If there's half a post that's why...

The $200 amount is reconciled to today's dollars. I believe the amount in Lizzie's time was $10.00/ week or month or whatever. Several have mentioned that Harry had posted a conversion chart some time back. I have never seen it but it sounds interesting.

[MysteryReader]

There is a website in the book that they used to convert the money then to what it would be today. There is nothing that says that it was $10 a week/month but that they all received $200 a month.

[twinsrwe]

... There are so much I want to discuss but I'm afraid of boring people here.

I highly doubt we would be bored, Mystery. It's been 122 years since the Borden murders, and people are still intrigued with this case.

[twinsrwe]

... Several have mentioned that Harry had posted a conversion chart some time back. I have never seen it but it sounds interesting.

Yes, Harry did post an Inflation Calculator conversion chart; here is the link: http://www.davemanuel.com/inflation-calculator.php

[Curryong]

Thank you, twins. You are invaluable in bringing up these links so quickly!
I suppose $10 a week may well have been a working man's wage then in some employment.

Discuss away MysteryReader! If we were bored we wouldn't still be on this forum plugging away at the mystery!

[debbiediablo]

I don't see money as the only motive. Part of it was hatred of Abby and hatred of Abby's ne'er-do-well family getting a chuck of Andrew's money and fear they might get more or almost all of it channeled through Abby's estate. But I also think there was something wrong with Lizzie herself, either because she was mentally unstable or had been abused or both. Abby's death may have been premeditated (I'm inclined to think yes) but Andrew's seems more likely the result of not being able to follow through with her initial plans (kill Abby, get Bridget to the fabric sale and then burn down the house to eliminate evidence just as Lizzie expressed in her premonition to Alice) or because she murdered Abby in a fit of rage, possibly over the Swansea farm, and got enmeshed in a cover-up that allowed for only one solution. The whole inheritance issue could've been solved with Abby's accidental-appearing death from poison, a fire, a fall, choking on three creamcakes stuffed down her throat at once. Andrew did not have to die to solve the money problem.

[MysteryReader]

Thanks, y'all! I find it all so interesting reading about the town and life in general. There were some who believed she was insane - I'll see if I can find that passage and put the quote here in a bit.

[twinsrwe]

Thank you, twins. You are invaluable in bringing up these links so quickly!

Your welcome. Thank you for the complement!

[MysteryReader]

There is another calculator used : www.FH.net to determine net worth.

[irina]

Thanks so much, Twins!

To me such a brutal murder of Abby is almost like a self defence, self preservation action. Not like Abby attacked, but in the case of Lizzie as killer, that Lizzie felt she had to kill Abby in order to survive.

I have no idea how much Andrew could have favored Abby in a will to the exclusion of his biological children. Since I have married two businessmen I feel I have a little insight into how their minds work. I would think Andrew wanted to provide the best he could for a faithful, thrifty wife of many years AND keep the wealth within his biological family~Lizzie and Emma. A logical way to do this would be to initially bequeath to the daughters a certain amount of money. I have read the sum of $25,000 each somewhere. I could see him leaving the rest of the estate in some sort of trust that would continue to generate wealth. Possibly Abby would have been in charge or perhaps she would have been like a board member along with Lizzie and Emma. Upon Abby's death there would be a provision for the rest of the estate to go to the daughters or to continue to be managed by whatever fiduciaries.

If Lizzie did it because of inheritance I would think the motive could have been not to end up tied to and perhaps subservient to Abby for the rest of Abby's life. Rather than murdering for instant wealth, in this scenario I could see murder to avoid being tied to Abby forever. Perhaps Abby made an off hand comment about how she would handle the estate and it enraged Lizzie. Maybe there was a mild threat implied, like Lizzie needed to do something or change her ways. Maybe there was a comment that Andrew didn't trust his daughters to handle wealth. THESE things I can see setting off a murderous rage.

[MysteryReader]

Here's a question- IF Lizzie killed Abby due to money and a general not liking her (people have killed for less), WHY kill Andrew? I don't buy the cover-up story.

[debbiediablo]

IMO, because Lizzie didn't want Andrew to know that she had killed his wife, and there was no way to make it look like an intruder. This segues directly into why she approached Andrew from above and behind - so her father would never realize his murderer was his daughter.

[twinsrwe]

There is another calculator used : http://www.FH.net to determine net worth.

Mystery, I clicked on the link you provided, and found myself in an internet page, which began with:

The End

You have finished the Internet !!!

Congratulations!

Thank you for visiting !

This is the final page.

( ... there are no more links.)

Since there are no more enticing pages,
you should now turn off your computer
and go do something productive...



I didn't find a calculator!

[irina]

Sounds like that site got hacked. I got a full page warning on my Chrome about calling my internet security system (complete with names & logo), or my computer would be destroyed. Since it looked official I called it though virus protection/security is NEVER installed in Chrome because Chrome has its own. Anyway the call probably went to Pakistan or Waziristan or something. Some guy similar to the guy on the funny ad who says, "Hello...my name is PEG-GY!" So I called my virus protection company & reported it. Scam.

The only reason I have ever seen for Lizzie to have killed her father is what has previously been said here and which Victoria Lincoln put in her book. Lizzie didn't want to lose her father's love when he discovered she had killed Abby. THAT makes a lot of clear and direct sense.

[MysteryReader]

So sorry Twin! It was given in the book.

Interesting but all she had to do to make it look like an intruder was to unlock the side door and make SURE Bridget was out of the house (they could have gone to the store together)... IDK.

[MysteryReader]

Thanks, y'all! I find it all so interesting reading about the town and life in general. There were some who believed she was insane - I'll see if I can find that passage and put the quote here in a bit.

There are varying speculations as to whether Lizzie was insane or if insanity ran in her family. Now, there was a man "James Coggeshall Stafford, a former Fall River sea captain, knew quite well the mother of Lizzie Borden, stating that she was a very peculiar woman with a very bad temper and was very strong in her likes and dislikes." (p.60).

Then you've got the usual bunch who agree with what anyone says but perhaps the "most forceful confirmation of abnormal behavior came from Rescome Case, the husband of one of Abby's friends, who declared I think some of them are worse than Insane." (p.60).

Of course, there are those who say there was never any insanity in the family- either Borden or Morse families.

** correction to a previous post- it was $200 a year, not a month. And the girls also received the same amount.

[Curryong]

It would have been just so much better and might even have saved lives if Andrew had just been open with his wife and daughters about his intentions and made a will. A Trust arrangement may have caused huge resentment but that could have been argued out. If he had done that and Lizzie and Emma still weren't happy with a third each of the money/shares then they should have been made to inform their father of their reasons, in my opinion. It seems fair to me.

Giving his wife the same allowance as his daughters is very strange behaviour, I think. It points to Andrew's tight-fistedness and perhaps a bit of contempt. Abby didn't like cheques (checks) and so there was money to pay household bills left in the safe. Why didn't she like cheques? Fair enough if she'd once been cheated by a fraudster or she was afraid of someone forging her signature, but what if she'd never been taught how to write one out?

That's not as strange as it seems. Several times over the years I've heard of newly widowed women in their 70's and 80's who have been left absolutely helpless because their husbands always did the banking and wrote out the cheques. And this is in the 20th/21st century, folks! (In one case the woman's middleaged son had to sit down with her one afternoon and go through financial matters with her.)

My son had one of those 'danger alert' messages come up on his computer, irina. He had quite a bit of fun dangling a woman with an Indian accent on the end of his fishing line for some time, until she became impatient. I suppose they have to get a certain number of suckers in per day. He then told her what he thought of her and the scam!

MysteryReader, the Chaces had known Abby all their lives. Mark Chase was the man hanging around Second St on the morning of the murder. He was an ex-cop and noticed Dr Handy behaving bizarrely when in his buggy.

His mother was the lady who told about Abby's hint to do with the daylight robbery at the Borden home (that she would give her the details later, but of course, she never did.) and also Abby's observation about having to buy household items from her allowance.

[twinsrwe]

Thanks so much, Twins! ...

You're welcome, Irina.

... To me such a brutal murder of Abby is almost like a self defence, self preservation action. Not like Abby attacked, but in the case of Lizzie as killer, that Lizzie felt she had to kill Abby in order to survive.

I have no idea how much Andrew could have favored Abby in a will to the exclusion of his biological children. Since I have married two businessmen I feel I have a little insight into how their minds work. I would think Andrew wanted to provide the best he could for a faithful, thrifty wife of many years AND keep the wealth within his biological family~Lizzie and Emma. A logical way to do this would be to initially bequeath to the daughters a certain amount of money. I have read the sum of $25,000 each somewhere. I could see him leaving the rest of the estate in some sort of trust that would continue to generate wealth. Possibly Abby would have been in charge or perhaps she would have been like a board member along with Lizzie and Emma. Upon Abby's death there would be a provision for the rest of the estate to go to the daughters or to continue to be managed by whatever fiduciaries.

If Lizzie did it because of inheritance I would think the motive could have been not to end up tied to and perhaps subservient to Abby for the rest of Abby's life. Rather than murdering for instant wealth, in this scenario I could see murder to avoid being tied to Abby forever. Perhaps Abby made an off hand comment about how she would handle the estate and it enraged Lizzie. Maybe there was a mild threat implied, like Lizzie needed to do something or change her ways. Maybe there was a comment that Andrew didn't trust his daughters to handle wealth. THESE things I can see setting off a murderous rage.

I believe there was a lot more going on in the Borden household than we will ever know about. I think the all mighty dollar was the primary motive, but I also strongly feel that it was NOT the ONLY motive. I am a 'Lizzie did it' believer, and have always felt that there was something that took place between Abby and Lizzie on the morning of the 4th; simply due to the number of blows she received vs. the number of blows Andrew received. Granted the killer had more time to hack away at Abby. If an intruder were the killer, they would not have known if someone would come in during their vicious attack on Abby, but if Lizzie were the killer, then she knew exactly where everyone was during the time that Abby was killed

We don't know what the conversation was between John and Andrew on the evening of the 3rd, but Abby did. These two men may very well have been talking about a will naming Abby as primary beneficiary, a transfer of land in Abby’s name, or something on that order. We don't know how much of Andrew and John's conversation was overheard by Lizzie, who would have been able to clearly hear their conversation from the upstairs front hall landing, without being noticed. As far as I know, the timeline for the evening of the 3rd is approximately: 8:45 pm Morse returns from Swansea, talks in sitting room with Andrew and Abby. 9:00 pm Lizzie returns from Alice Russell’s house, enters and locks the front door and goes immediately up to her room without speaking to her father or uncle. 9:15 pm Abby Borden retires to bed. 10:00 pm Andrew and Morse retire to bed. If this time line is somewhat correct, then Lizzie could have eavesdropped in on approximately an hour of the conversation between John and Andrew.

In the thread titled, Dr. Bowen, I posted some information from Shelley who was at one time a tour guide at 92 Second Street. She has conducted several reenactments to determine the timelines of events, such as how much time it would have taken Bridget to go to Dr. Bowen’s house, and then to Alice Russell’s house, as well as things such as the following…

On Wed Oct 31, 2007, Shelley posted:

If all the window are open, you cannot hear a conversation in the sitting room from Lizzie's room unless the speakers stand right in the sitting room window and speak loudly. You have to go out on the front hall upstairs landing to hear a conversation in the sitting room- of course that would also have been very easy for Lizzie to have done Wednesday night when she came home from Alice's.

What I have found more interesting is the fact that Lizzie moved her headboard right into that corner by the door between her room and Abby's room. Her pillow lines up exactly with the KEYHOLE into the older Borden's bedroom and yes, every single word anyone says in that room can be heard clear as a bell. Andy's safe was also right in that room behind Lizzie pillow. I never thought it was a coincidence she moved that bed as soon as she got back from Europe and crammed it right in that corner. Sure, it kept Abby or anyone else from ever being able to come through that door, but it also gave her the best spot in the house to eavesdrop.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3183&p=53714

I agree with you. All of the things you listed as possible remarks made by Abby, would definitely have sent Lizzie into a blind killing rage.

[twinsrwe]

So sorry Twin! It was given in the book. ...

No problem, Mystery, there was no harm done. I understand and I certainly don't blame you; it wasn't your fault that the web site was hacked. Irina and Curry's son had more of an in-depth experience with that web site than I did.

[twinsrwe]

Here's a question- IF Lizzie killed Abby due to money and a general not liking her (people have killed for less), WHY kill Andrew? I don't buy the cover-up story.

Good question. I also believe that Lizzie didn't want Andrew to know she had killed Abby. Furthermore, she may have been afraid that if her father did find out she had killed his beloved wife, then he would have left her penniless and kicked her out in the cold.

[Curryong]

Yes, even if the police hadn't pointed to Lizzie as the killer. I agree.

[twinsrwe]

Thanks, y'all! I find it all so interesting reading about the town and life in general. There were some who believed she was insane - I'll see if I can find that passage and put the quote here in a bit.

There are varying speculations as to whether Lizzie was insane or if insanity ran in her family. Now, there was a man "James Coggeshall Stafford, a former Fall River sea captain, knew quite well the mother of Lizzie Borden, stating that she was a very peculiar woman with a very bad temper and was very strong in her likes and dislikes." (p.60).

Then you've got the usual bunch who agree with what anyone says but perhaps the "most forceful confirmation of abnormal behavior came from Rescome Case, the husband of one of Abby's friends, who declared I think some of them are worse than Insane." (p.60).

Of course, there are those who say there was never any insanity in the family- either Borden or Morse families.

** correction to a previous post- it was $200 a year, not a month. And the girls also received the same amount.

Interesting information, Mystery! Thank you for posting this.

[MysteryReader]

Here's a question- IF Lizzie killed Abby due to money and a general not liking her (people have killed for less), WHY kill Andrew? I don't buy the cover-up story.

Good question. I also believe that Lizzie didn't want Andrew to know she had killed Abby. Furthermore, she may have been afraid that if her father did find out she had killed his beloved wife, then he would have left her penniless and kicked her out in the cold.

That does make sense! Thanks, Twins!

[twinsrwe]

It would have been just so much better and might even have saved lives if Andrew had just been open with his wife and daughters about his intentions and made a will. A Trust arrangement may have caused huge resentment but that could have been argued out. If he had done that and Lizzie and Emma still weren't happy with a third each of the money/shares then they should have been made to inform their father of their reasons, in my opinion. It seems fair to me.

Giving his wife the same allowance as his daughters is very strange behaviour, I think. It points to Andrew's tight-fistedness and perhaps a bit of contempt. Abby didn't like cheques (checks) and so there was money to pay household bills left in the safe. Why didn't she like cheques? Fair enough if she'd once been cheated by a fraudster or she was afraid of someone forging her signature, but what if she'd never been taught how to write one out?

...

I agree; it probably would have been better if Andrew had been up-front with his wife and daughters regarding his intensions. However, in the Victorian era, the man of the household 'wore the pants' and all decisions were his to make; it was unheard for a man to confide his intentions to his family before making a decision. Whatever, the man of the house did or said is what was done. Period.

[twinsrwe]

Here's a question- IF Lizzie killed Abby due to money and a general not liking her (people have killed for less), WHY kill Andrew? I don't buy the cover-up story.

Good question. I also believe that Lizzie didn't want Andrew to know she had killed Abby. Furthermore, she may have been afraid that if her father did find out she had killed his beloved wife, then he would have left her penniless and kicked her out in the cold.

That does make sense! Thanks, Twins!

Your welcome.

[MysteryReader]

I read a blurb about the will of a Durfee being lost- I want to say it was Abby's father but I haven't really gotten that far yet.

[twinsrwe]

Interesting! Please let us know what you find out.

[MysteryReader]

I read a blurb about the will of a Durfee being lost- I want to say it was Abby's father but I haven't really gotten that far yet.

Okay. It was a Durfee but that would be on her mother's side (wasn't she (Abby) a Gray?) but it wasn't lost but destroyed in the great fire of 1843, when a good part of the town burned. The will in question was belonging to a Major Durfee. With all of the early deaths and remarrying, I'm a tad lost on who was related to whom. He married and lost his first wife Phebe Borden (she was the widow of a Cap. George Borden). She was 30 with 4 children and he was 21. When he lost her, Major Durfee married his second wife, Mary Brayton.

Long story short, he had made a will and made adjustments after the death of his first wife and his second marriage. He also had 1 son with second wife and so he made another set of adjustments to the will. However, it was left in the office of the local chief legal luminary, instead of his home where he claimed it would be safe. Ultimately, it's how B.M.C. Durfee became the wealthiest person of Fall River at the young age of 17.

*Didn't quote anything directly here.

[Curryong]

I've got a feeling that Abby's family (including her mother) were from junior branches of the wealthier members of old established families. A bit like Andrew's particular branch of the Bordens. Relatives but not really close ones.

[twinsrwe]

Mystery, thank you for letting us know about Major Durfee's will being destroyed in the fire of 1843. Interesting.

[debbiediablo]

This should be part of the timeline, too:

A. She said, "I feel as if I wanted to sleep with my eyes half open—with one eye open half the time—-for fear they will burn the house down over us."

Q. Is there anything else that occurs to you in the conversation?

A. Oh, she said, "I am afraid somebody will do something; I don't know but what somebody will do something." I think that was the beginning.

Q. Please state that.

A. "I think sometimes—I am afraid sometimes that somebody will do something to him; he is so discourteous to people."

[irina]

Being a successful businessman is about control too. Control is very important. If Andrew made decisions in a will or otherwise for after his death, he wouldn't want to be questioned, harassed, criticized, etc. by family members. In many ways Andrew maintained control in all aspects of his life. This doesn't make him a bad guy but it can be a trait of very successful people.

Considering the computer scam things, my friend's adult son is a computer genius and works in that business. He got ahold of one of these scammers somewhere in some foreign country and kept the scammer going for quite some time with erroneous information. When the scammer finally caught on he became very angry and told the young man he could **** (not a cordial word) his own mother, sister, etc. I suppose the scammers have a victim quota and they don't like to waste time. The one I got couldn't answer a simple question & kept saying "Just a minute" while he asked someone else questions. My security company isn't like that so I was smart enough to hang up.

[Curryong]

Andrew was criticised and manipulated, therefore losing control, when his two angry daughters heard about the Whitehead half house deal. Sometimes I wonder whether Andrew was as always in control of his household as he would have liked to have been. His remark to an acquaintance shortly before the murders of 'trouble at home' sounds like a cry from the heart of a harassed man who knows that another battle is approaching over another land transfer.

[irina]

That's probably why he delayed making a will. He knew it would all hit the fan if fans had been invented at that time.

The more I think about it, it would have been a real win/win thing to give the girls large chunks of the estate & leave another money generating chunk in a trust or in Abby's hands until her death, at which time Emma and Lizzie would get all of it. This makes a lot of sense in that Abby wouldn't be deprived but whatever Abby didn't use would revert to Andrew's offspring. If he simply gave a large portion to Abby, and considering people didn't live as long in those days, reasonably she would have died within a decade or so and that part of Andrew's estate would go to Abby's family more than likely. This would dilute the value of what Andrew Borden amassed in his life. So I bet he was figuring out ways to protect and reward his faithful wife while ultimately leaving almost all of the estate to his daughters. If Abby was the biological mother it would have been simpler because she would surely have left her estate to her daughters. As a step mother, not beloved by the step daughters, anything she inherited outright would likely have been willed to her family rather than back to Lizzie and Emma.

Anyway all this makes sense to me. So from the Lizzie did it perspective another possible morning conversation between Abby and Lizzie could have been:

Lizzie: You're a mean old thing and I can't wait for you to be out of our lives.
Abby: Keep dreaming. Your father is making me head of the A. J. Borden Trust that will handle half of his fortune.

[Curryong]

Does that conversation end with a 'Whack!!' 'Smile'.

Yes, I agree. Considering the relationship between Abby and her stepdaughters and Abby's undoubtedly simple lifestyle (I think she would have remained at No. 92) Sarah Whitehead might very well have been in receipt of a couple of hundred thousand dollars by the end of the century if Andrew made no arrangements. Very nice indeed.

[debbiediablo]

A close family friend is the son of an Air Force General who controlled the lives of tens of thousands of men in WWII, Korea and the Cold War. The family literally lived with the red phone in their home that meant nuclear attack if it ever rang. His son who is now in his 70s has often said to me (paraphrased), "Dad wielded unimaginable military power, but he was clueless about how to handle what was happening between his wife and sons at home." To say much more would be telling a story that it not mine to tell, but I do agree with 1) men who have control in their professional lives often want control in their personal lives as well 2) sometimes they want exactly the opposite and would prefer to leave hearth, home and children to their wife and/or servants 3) sometimes their ability to get done what they want at work doesn't extend to their personal lives...the necessary skillsets are not the same.

[Curryong]

Yes, whether it was any of 1,2 or 3, or a mixture of them, I just get the feeling that some men, whether wealthy and successful or not, don't understand the opposite sex very well. If you add onto that the impression that Andrew was not a people person at all, well....

[MysteryReader]

Keep in mind, it's not only men that want control but women, too. Humans don't like it when we can't control things.

[irina]

Like I said, form the Lizzie did it perspective, my suggested conversation would end with a WHACK! (smile)

I think Andrew did micromanage the home also. He did some of the marketing, doled out expense money and allowances, seemed to be the one who decided how many amenities the home would have. I see a lot of similarities between Andrew and one of the men I married. Andrew was basically a decent human being (looking from the daily life perspective, not murder motive, incest, abuse angles), who possibly showed his love for family by providing and protecting what he provided. His security was in what he amassed and his needs were simple and he wanted everyone around him to share his ideals. My parents were similar to that so I, like Abby, function well in such a melieu. I have Lizzie's tastes in some respects but thank God yard sales were invented. Expensive things literally call my name....

Another thing I have never seen discussed concerning Andrew's life and business is that currency wasn't stable in those days. Sometimes US currency wasn't safe. A member of the Donner Party that met such tragedy in California, scrounged together various precious metal coins to take with them. Spanish silver was highly valued as were other foreign coins. This was about 1836-37. Currency could also be issued by local entities. For example the Mormons at one time issued their own currency with devastating results. This system seemed to work somewhat like bit-coins work today. The currency was worth shares of something that backed it.

There is a lot of criticism of some international and national institutions today who keep currency stable. I understand the criticisms and the risk for abuse, yet currency is fairly stable in today's world. It wasn't in Andrew's day. His portfolio needed to be extremely diverse.

I don't claim to fully understand currency or the history thereof. I read various things in other histories and try to put them into perspective. There were a number of bank failures, depressions and boom and bust cycles. None of this was insured. For anyone creating a fortune, there was a lot more to it than investing and saving.

[debbiediablo]

Keep in mind, it's not only men that want control but women, too. Humans don't like it when we can't control things.

It's probably fair to say that everyone wants control of their own life even when that person has a personality so submissive that they choose to give much of that control to another. The trouble starts when people want to extend their control to the control of others, whether the others want it or not. I totally agree that women can be controlling, too, but their methods to obtain that control are most often different than men's...and certainly would have been even more divergent in Victorian times.

[MysteryReader]

Could control have been a part of Lizzie or even Emma's problem?

[Curryong]

I'm not sure about Emma. In many ways she's a blank sheet, though the crisp and concise way she gave her testimony does make me think, 'still waters run deep'. Lizzie, I think was certainly firm-minded and, who knows, both of them may well have inherited some of Andrew's stubbornness. Neither of them married so we can't tell how they would have coped with the give and take aspect of marriage, which sometimes requires a LOT of compromise.

Yes, irina, I agree about the currency. There seem to have been cycles of boom and bust, bust and boom throughout the 19th century American economy. A lot of fortunes to be made and won, but also lost. I think Andrew was extremely shrewd to have built up his fortune in the way he did

[debbiediablo]

Murder is the ultimate means of control.

[snokkums]

I think it was financial. Both on Lizzie's part, and if someone else did it, Andy probably owed money to someone.
Here's this scenrio. Person comes over to get the money he feels owed to him. Andrew feels he paid the person the money he was owed. A fight starts, with Andy getting the blade.