If Sarah Had Lived

This is the place for friendly chit-chat on off-topic subjects.

Moderator: Adminlizzieborden

Post Reply
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

If Sarah Had Lived

Post by Allen »

I have been wondering about something lately, and I thought I would pose a question and see what you all think. It is obvious, in my opinion, that Lizzie harbored some pretty potent resentment and hatred for Abby. I think she committed the murders partly to secure her own financial future, and to rid herself of that retched woman once and for all. What I have been wondering is, if Sarah had lived, could she have ultimately suffered the same fate as Abby? Even though she was Lizzie's biological mother, she was said to suffer from fits of uncontrollable rage. Who knows, maybe if she had lived her mental state would've deteriorated due to whatever illness she suffered from. I could only speculate as to what it was, or if it would cause her to be committed at some point. Could these behaviors have caused Lizzie to resent Sarah in the same way she did Abby? Could this resentment, couple with Andrew's frugal ways with money, have caused Lizzie to build up to the same breaking point and kill Sarah and Andrew? I am asking out of curiousity as to your opinions, and because I think it is a question that has never been considered before, well...that I know of anyway :lol: .
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Susan
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:26 pm
Real Name:
Location: California

Post by Susan »

Interesting question, Allen. The first thing that came to my mind was something that had been said about Abby being more frugal than Sarah was, I can't recall who it was that was supposed to have said it. If that was so, then perhaps Andrew was more free with his earnings with Sarah, or Sarah just spent it as she saw fit. With that in mind, I don't think Sarah would have met the same fate as Abby. Lizzie probably would have been more amply supplied with the trappings that she held dear, heck, Sarah may have even put her foot down and pressed for the family to move to "the Hill".

I've always wondered about Sarah's alleged uncontrollable rages, maybe as a woman she wasn't supposed to show strong emotions such as anger and when she did, it was mislabeled? And, who were these rages directed against, I've always wondered? Was it anyone within the vicinity or mainly against Andrew? There was a thread going about Sarah's connection with suffragettes of the day, perhaps she was a free thinker and didn't follow with societies' ideals for womanhood. Theres just so much about the woman that we don't know and I wish that we did. Emma and John Morse didn't share much about her, was she a good mother to the girls, a loving wife to Andrew?

With as little as I know about Sarah, I'd still have to say I don't think she would have gotten the axe, though Andrew is still another story. :smile:
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14785
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Post by Kat »

Good question good reply.
I think it was The Stepmother thing which tipped the scale.
Not being a step-child to anyone tho, perhaps I don't know much about this answer. It's just my observance.
User avatar
Harry
Posts: 4061
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
Real Name: harry
Location: South Carolina

Post by Harry »

I don't think we will ever know how Sarah would have handled money. She died in 1863, before Andrew really began making his fortune.

The 1860 Federal Census (page 29, Rebello) shows his worth, in total, land and personal, as $11,300. They did have a domestic but I don't think that indicated great wealth in 1860. Labor was cheap. Emma was only 9 in 1860 and Sarah was probably already sick.

In 1870, that worth figure jumps to $40,000. It was not until 1872 that he purchased the Second St. house.

The Dun and Bradstreet financial reports (page 543, Rebello) don't indicate any financial problems in the early 1860's but in 1864 the firm of Borden & Almy took a new partner, Theodore Wood. Wood at the time was a clerk in the firm and only 28 years old. He had been hired in 1862.

To me that's very strange. Andrew was only 42 and Almy 43 in 1864, hardly ages where they were not physically able to run the company. In some cases new partners are added to draw additional capital into the firm but Wood was an employee and it doesn't appear he had made any financial investment in the firm. Why let a new partner in if the firm was doing a booming business? Very un-Andrew like.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
Miller
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:51 pm
Real Name:
Location: California

Post by Miller »

I don't think so. Emma was enamoured of her mother and I believe she contributed to the Lizzie's own animosity (at a young age) and downright hatred later of Abby by reinforcing to the little lizzie how wonderful and loving mother Sarah was.

And isn't it peculiar that Oliver Gray named the daughter he had with his SECOND wife (Jane) "Sarah", the name of his FIRST wife. Since this child was only a few years younger than lizzie do you suppose lizzie grew up resenting THAT?
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14785
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Post by Kat »

There were Sarah Whiteheads all over the census- in fact, I couldn't find ours because the name was so popular in New England!
There were 3,000 Sarah Whiteheads.
I just think it was a popular name. Would Lizzie resent the child being given her own mother's name?
Audrey
Posts: 2048
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:14 am
Real Name:

Post by Audrey »

If Sarah had lived it would have changed the entire dynamics of the family and therefore the atmosphere of the house. If Andrew and Sarah were a love match, she may have been able to wheedle anything she wanted from him and also for her girls. Andrew may have been less dour-- there may have been laughter in the home.

A home where there is love is vastly different from one where there is not-- We do not know for sure if Sarah had a mental illness or just a strong personality or was perhaps just different from others. Had she enjoyed good phycisal health and had been around to raise her daughters they may have turned out quite differently. She would have had a more female's vested interest in her daughters and their lives-- she may have coached them on the art of enchanting a man-- she may very well have seen to it they did have a "proper" home and chances to entertain where they would have met men or even just friends. They may have had people to dinner or for other social events. There is really no way we can say what it would have been like.

For some reason I sense that Andrew adored her and would have done what he could to make her happy.... Even if it included opening his wallet!
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

Kat @ Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:34 pm wrote:There were Sarah Whiteheads all over the census- in fact, I couldn't find ours because the name was so popular in New England!
There were 3,000 Sarah Whiteheads.
I just think it was a popular name. Would Lizzie resent the child being given her own mother's name?
3,000 Sarah Whitehead's? Sounds like it was a very popular name at that :roll: . My opinion is that Lizzie probably never gave it a second thought.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post Reply