Hot Muggy Weather

Tracie · Post by **Tracie** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:07 pm

Boy is it HOT!!!! The dew point is so high on the scale that it is nearly off the edge. The only thing saving us is the sun isn't out.

Please check on the welfare of your friends in New England, we may melt away or commit murder if relief doesn't arrive soon. Oh it isn't August.

I think I might stop by the Bordens for some lemonade.........

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:57 pm

We have been having a heat wave in Detroit for weeks, too. The first day I went to use my central air, it wouldn't work. That happens every year. Next year we'll get it serviced in the spring.

I have a feeling that FR is hot in the summer. There are just some towns, near the water, that are just laying out there for the sun to roast no matter what the temp is anywhere else. I'm not positive, but whenever I've gone out there in the summer I've fried.

The day of the murders, there's no question it was extremely hot. Tho records show it only got up to what, 83, that day? It probably felt like 100. (Can you imagine with those 1890 clothes??? It's a wonder there's anyone in town who wasn't murdered those summers.)

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:01 pm

So true, can you imagine having to wear all those
clothes when it is this hot? It is so stifling humid here in Joisey, i was watering my flowers today and
just about passed out,
washing windows, no way, what a cruel assignment
that would be, especially dressed in Victorian garb!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:14 pm

It has been hot here as well. I went to the store the other day, and as soon as I stepped outside it felt like I just literally hit a wall of heat. After coming out of the store it was the same thing. It was almost oppressive it was so hot. Yet I checked the weather reports and it seemed to be only 86 degrees. I thought the weather report had to be wrong, there was no way it felt like over 100 out there. Then it rained, which didn't help. We have a forcast of rain for the next few days unfortunately.

ghostcat1313 · Post by **ghostcat1313** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:34 pm

Warm (not too hot) and muggy in Massachusetts. Second day this week of severe thunder and lightening storms, high winds and torential rains, especially on the coast.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:49 pm

Hot HOt HOT in Iowa...

90's!

It seems we have severe thunderstorms every night and then it is so humid...

We have had our central air on for nearly 2 weeks straight and it is running itself to death.

"CLOSE THE DOOR"...

Oops.. Habit

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:27 am

"Masterton, William L. 'Weather We Do: Some Like It Hot!' Lizzie Borden Quarterly IV.1 (January 1997): 7-8."

"After quoting various authors on the Lizzie Borden case that all claim that the day of the murders was a very hot one, Masterton uses three sources (The Fall River Daily Herald, The Fall River Evening News, and the United States Signal Service) to prove that the temperature was not over 78 degrees when Andrew was murdered."

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... Auth.htm#m

______

We've had our second wettest June in Florida history- and it'd driving the bugs indoors! I've just been attacked by a 2" palmetto bug and a big spider! They are now squished because they ran at me.

Tracie · Post by **Tracie** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:14 am

ghostcat1313 @ Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:34 pm wrote:Warm (not too hot) and muggy in Massachusetts. Second day this week of severe thunder and lightening storms, high winds and torential rains, especially on the coast.

I'm in Taunton, MA near Fall River and it is so humid that it's almost raining. You know, the air is so thick that it's wet. Newburyport sounds better than Taunton.

Nancie, I was thinking about those long hot clothes on my way home in the heat Tuesday. I go out practically naked!! I'm not going outside unless I absolutely have to. But I have AC in four windows and that cools the house enough to be comfortable.

Augusta, when I put up my wooden screen doors this spring I thought about you--they are wonderful when you can keep the regualr doors open.
I picked up a really pretty one at Lowes--its heavy and bangs loud when closing. At least I know it's closed. Audrey--I know that chant--CLOSE THE DOOR..

allen, I know that feeling, I went to Mexico (a long time ago) and I got off the plane and felt the heat hit me like a wall. I was near the engines of the plane and thought that that was the reason for the high heat, but boy oh boy, was I wrong! The Heat stifling hot and this was Christmas day!!

My Honeysuckle is out of control Kat, we have had a very wet June also and when I can have the doors open it smells heavenly. I know that the topic of How Hot Was It has been talked about before and I know that the actual temp was not too high, But, maybe the dew point was wicked high and that made the heat index higher. Which I don't think was taken into consideration....but I could be wrong.....

Have wonderful 4th all, I won't be back until 7/5.

OOO's + XXXX's

Tracie

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:00 pm

It's HOT in Mo, it's 96 right now and could get up to 100. The air is so muggy and humid you could die out there.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:14 pm

Kat @ Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:27 am wrote:"Masterton, William L. 'Weather We Do: Some Like It Hot!' Lizzie Borden Quarterly IV.1 (January 1997): 7-8."

"After quoting various authors on the Lizzie Borden case that all claim that the day of the murders was a very hot one, Masterton uses three sources (The Fall River Daily Herald, The Fall River Evening News, and the United States Signal Service) to prove that the temperature was not over 78 degrees when Andrew was murdered."

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... Auth.htm#m

In Rebello it also states the the degree of humidity is not known. So it could've felt much hotter than 78 degrees, based on the degree of humidity. For so many people of that time to remember it as a hot day, I think it's at least worth consideration.

"The Heat Index combines air temperature and humidity to estimate how hot it "feels" outside. For example, if it is 90 degrees fahrenheit and the relative humidity is at 90 percent, it feels like it is 118 degrees."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/we ... ulator.htm

You can try it for yourself at this link. There are calculators that help you figure out relative humidty and the heat index among other things. All you need is the information about the weather in your area, which I found quite easily online.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:55 am

Hot & muggy up here in Canada as well. 2nd heatwave within June. Supposed to break tomorrow (I hope, I hope!). Altho, dire predictions from the weather people that this whole summer is going to be brutal. My poor Mia is so miserable & listless in her fur. Imagine Andrew Borden in his suit & Prince Albert & hi-top gaiters! An older lady I was talking with recently said she could not believe how in the 50s & 60s all the "office girls" wore rubberized girdles all the time regardless of the weather. She said peeling it off after work in weather like this was her greatest joy. Just the thought of it gives me the willies.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:45 am

Well, living in Florida I have to admit we are used to it. I go lie out in it. I trim trees in it. My car has no A/C.
It's just those dang bugs and snakes and alligators! Grrr.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:46 am

No AC in your car?

Mon Dieu!

weber · Post by **weber** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:10 am

I hate to say it but you folks haven't seen heat until you've been in Phoenix with 112 degrees and a 20 mph breeze! It is like a blast furnace- I don't even run my hair dryer this hot! The lack of humidity is hindering the fighting of the forest fires that are only about 20 miles from downtown Phoenix.

Orginally, I am from Iowa/Minnesota and winters up there were sometimes brutal. I always say that in the winter up there, you went from your house to the car to the office. It is the same scenario in summer in Phoenix.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:43 am

I have been looking for a place to ask this question. Since cars have been mentioned here I am going to ask it. Does anyone know if any of Lizzie's cars have survived till the present day? I read that Lizzie had a few cars over the years. It is a unique experiece to stay in Lizzie's house but can you imagine being able to ride down the street in Lizzie's car?

Lizzie probably didn't get to enjoy air conditioning in her cars though.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:45 am

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:48 pm

Yes! Hot dry heat in Arizona is debillitating!
I remember having to sit in a makeship steambath in my motel room bathroom with the hot shower running and a wet washcloth over my face to breathe through! Just to get revitalized and re-moisturized and be able to Breathe!!
You are absolutely right about that weber!

The air is so dry when it's that hot, it's like it sucks the very air out of you.
I need the humidity!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:47 pm

That's a great question about Lizzie's cars!
Anyone know a tag & title insider or a relative of someone who inherited an automobile?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:00 pm

Also, the weather service reports that we have
access to from August 4, 1892 were probably put
out in the morning hours. Certainly not at exactly
10:30 or 11. This morning Al Roker was saying it
was 73 degrees in NYC, Ha when I was getting dressed to work a few hours later with sweat dripping off me, even though I just took a shower,
sorry Al you are wrong about that, things change quick with Mother nature.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:51 pm

People will continue to think what they wish to think.
I'm only giving you resources to find out more.
The subject was covered by good people in several different items in the LBQ. If anyone has these they can check for themselves.

Ed Thibault, in an article on the Conference, with Starrs lecture, April 1993 LBQ excerpt:
"Thereon the projection screen was a United States Weather Bureau almanac for a two-week period of August, 1892. There it was, just as I knew, documented proof contradicting every writer who has ever written about the Borden murders
and claiming the day was hot and humid. The temperature for that period, as recorded by the US. Weather Bureau, was between 64 and 67 degrees at 6:00 am and varied between 74 and 83 degrees the rest of the day, reaching the high (83
degrees) at 2:00 pm.
This would have no effect on a person to commit a crime, as some writers have asserted, since the murders were committed in the morning."

July, 1993, Letter from Howard Brody: "At the centennial conference at BCC in August 1992, I was struck by Professor William Masterson's claim that (based on an unspecified newspaper report) the high temperature in Fall River that day was 72 degrees, far below the high-90's described by almost all previous Borden authors....The two newspapers for August 4-5 which I have in facsimile editions (the New Bedford Evening Standard and the Fall River Daily Globe) both give weather reports in very general terms such as 'fair' (not 'hot', I noted), but specified no temperatures...James Starrs has shown a slide from the U.S. Weather Bureau indicating a low of 64-67 degrees and a high of 83 degrees. (The weather station was not specified.)..."

Ed Thibault, in the October '93 LBQ excerpt:
"...rely on local newspaper almanacs for my information. Following is a summary of my findings.

Fall River Daily Herald

* Monday, August 1 -8:00 am -60 degrees; 12:00 noon -66 degrees; 2:00 pm -66 degrees; HI -66 degrees, LO –60 degrees.

*Tuesday, August 2 -8:00 am -61 degrees; 12:00 noon -66 degrees; 2:00 pm -66 degrees; HI -66 degrees, LO –60 degrees.

*Wednesday, August 3 -8:00 am -66 degrees; 12:00 noon -74 degrees; 2:00pm -76 degrees; HI- 78 degrees, LO -63 degrees.

*Thursday, August 4 -8:00 am -74 degrees; 12:00 noon -80 degrees; 2:00 pm -80 degrees; HI- 80 degrees, LO –69 degrees.

Both of the other Fall River newspapers, The Daily Globe and The Evening News, did not record temperatures in their weather almanacs, only weather forecasts.

August 1- Cloudy and unsettled, probably occasional rain.
August 2 -Continued cloudy cool weather, probable light rain.
August 3 -Fair, preceded by coastal showers.
August 4 -Fair, slightly cooler.

Since both of these newspapers had similar forecasts, I am assuming they were from a central source. I could not document that source, however.
In one of these publications I found two very interesting articles. The first was regarding rain fall. For a twenty-four hour period between August 2 and 3, .15 of an inch of rain had fallen. This corresponded with the forecast of probable light rain showers...[found] the temperatures for that week. They were as follows:

July 25 -HI -90, LO -70.
July 26 -HI -90, LO -74.
July 27 -HI -90, LO -73.
July 28 -HI -90, LO -70.
July 29 -HI -90, LO -70.

These temperatures do represent a 'heat wave.'...The official definition of a heat wave, according to the United States Weather Bureau, is 'three consecutive days of temperatures of 90 degrees or more.' "

Our member William Schley-Ulrich wrote an item for the Jan. 1997 LBQ, "Just How Hot Was It?", including excerpt: "The Fall River Library provided me with a Xerox copy of the weather reported in the Fall River Herald for August 4, 1892. It reads as follows:
'Herald Office 2 o'clock p.m.
Miniature Almanac:
6 a.m. temperature 66 degrees.
Noon, 74 degrees.
2 p.m., 76 degrees.'
Highest recorde temperature for this day was 78 degrees."

-- There is Data for a graph provided on the facing page, with an article by Dr. Masterton.
"This conclusion is based on data from three sources:
1. The Fall River Daily Herald, which quoted temperatures of 74 degrees at 8 a.m. and 80 degrees at noon. Interpolation gives 78 degrees at 11 a.m.
2. The Fall River Evening News, which noted that 'Remington and Davol's thermometer (in Fall River) registered 79 degrees at 11 a.m.'
3. The United States Sognal Service, where a voluntary observer gave Fall River temperatures of 67 degrees at 7 a.m. and 83 degrees at 2 p.m."

..."Clearly there were two heat waves that summer, centered around July 26 and August 10. In contrast, the temperature was close to normal in New England during the week of August 4."

--Included is a document called "the Meteorological record for the month of August, 1892, Place of Observation: Fall River, County of Bristol, State of Mass. Latitude 41.42, Longitude 71.09 and Height of ground above sea, 200 feet."
--The notations made by volunteer observor was 3x a day, 7 a.m., 2p.m. and 9p.m. provided by Jules Rykebusch

--Whew! I type with one finger!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:10 pm

The temperature is not what I debate. What I debate is the degree of humidity, or the heat index, which can make it feel hotter than what the temperature actually is. Nowhere in any of the research does it state anything about these details. Rebello states in his book the degree of humidity is not known. Which is what I stated in my earlier post.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:27 pm

The info is for people who have not these LBQ issues.
I'm not selling anything, as they say on the phone...

You're all welcome.

I think it's good to disemminate information.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:07 am

You're wonderful to type all that out, Kat & single digited to boot! However, the thing that has always bothered me about all the subsequent data claiming that it was *not* hot is that it contradicts what everyone testifies in the Borden source docs (esp Trial). The witnesses claimed it was an uncomfortably hot day. I wonder why researchers later wanted to prove them all wrong?

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:41 am

Here are some examples from the Trial. I apologize in advance if this all runs together in one paragraph--that's how my computer posts these & I'm unable to edit.

Page 284 - Bridget: Q- It was hot weather and you didn't need much fire after breakfast? A- No, sir.

Page 482 - Fleet (re barn loft): "Very hot and close." Page 449 - Fleet: Q-What sort of a day generally was it in Fall River that day with respect to heat? A- It was a very hot, one of the hottest days, I think, we had.

Page 570 - Harrington: Q- In addition to heat I will ask you the direct question,--was it what was called close? A- Yes, sir, suffocating, you might say.

Page 692 - Mullaly: "Well, I know it was hot, that is all, very hot. You know it was a hot day."

Page 1112 - Hilliard: Q- What sort of a day was it with reference to heat on the 4th of August last? A- Very hot.

Page 1422 - Hymon Lubinsky: "It was a hot day."

Knowlton also refers repeatedly to the day being hot in his closing argument.

It could be considered, since so many policemen testified to it being hot, that it was stressed to disprove Lizzie being able to stand it in the barn. However, Lubinsky, one of the most prominent witnesses for the *Defense* also claimed Aug 4 was hot. So, why would latter day Bordenites *want* to discredit people who were actually *there*???

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:40 am

Thanks for the transcriptions.
Some of these questions are asked and answered somewhat in these articles.
I can't re-type them all.
Maybe someone else with the sources might feel like explaining the theories as to why?

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:24 pm

IMHO, whether one is uncomfortably hot is largely in the mind. I lived in lower South Carolina during part of my childhood and in Piedmont North Carolina for another part. The town where I lived in NC is in an area noted for its dreadful summer heat and humidity. We didn't have home air conditioning in those days, nor did we go out half-naked. We did drink lots of cold water and iced tea, and we knew enough to stay out of the noonday sun and to close up our houses to keep the heat at bay. We also knew how to "think cool." That's a big part of the secret to staying comfortable in the summer. If you don't think you're miserable, you won't be. (That also works for things besides heat.)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:37 pm

I was thinking about this- and this line of thought last night.
That in Florida, being used to high humidity, I can't erase the experience or my acclimation to it.
Then I was thinking those of you who wonder might keep track of the temperature where you live around 11 a.m. as often as you can. When it's about 78, 79 or 80 degrees outside at 11 a.m. just go outside and experience it. Then check the humidity level.
Then subtract the fact that you ever knew or experienced air conditioning.
You might get a better idea of what 78 with a high humidity feels like.

Personally, I can't do it.

Also you may wish to check where the first "hot" references come from. Are they stated on their own by witnesses or is it a question brought up by someone with an agenda?
Really.

Also, I think some of these guys who wrote about this were first wondering about "Me & Brownie" and their description of it being cooler in the barn loft than outside.

They found there was a heat wave the week before and a heat wave the week after and think the questioners just ran that August 4th week together in people's minds. It might have to do with the barn loft stay of Lizzie- that's true.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:01 pm

I'm wondering why so much weight was given to the testimony of two young boys. There were reportedly break- ins of the Borden barn, and this is when the pigeons were supposedly stolen. These two boys could've been the perpetrators of those particular thefts? They may have enjoyed their little inside joke if this was the case. I can't understand why anyone took the words of the two young boys over that of the police officers.

Lizzie Borden inquest testimony page 75(32):

Q. That is the second story of the barn?
A.Yes, sir.

Q.Was the window open?
A. I think not.

Q.Hot?
A. Very hot.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. I know call your attention, and ask you to say whether you have told me-- I don't suppose you stayed there any longer than necessary?
A. No sir, because it was close.

Q. I suppose that was the hottest place there on the premises?
A. I should think so.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:02 pm

Even though I usually do not take Lizzie's word for anything when it comes to details, it is interesting how she too admits that it was hot there that day in the barn loft. I am not sure if she would've had an agenda for saying it was so hot.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:46 pm

Yes but..
Notice she is asked : "Hot?" first.
Can you find someone at the first describing it thus without the question put first?
Lizzie could have lied about "hot" easily if she wasn't up there. Me & Brownie were up there the day of the murder- I'm not referring to the pigeons.

Today also I was was wondering about the breeze. A breeze can make as much difference as humidity- but no one asks about that.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:59 pm

From Rebello, pg 89: "...Four months after the Borden trial Thomas Barlow and several friends were arrested on Sunday, October 8, 1893, for breaking and entering into Daniel F. Sullivan's Boots and Shoes at 40 South Main at 11 p.m. When confronted by the police at the store they were wearing shoes which had been stolen earlier from Sears and Hall Boots and Shoes at 13 Granite Block. Thomas Barlow the noted 'me' who figured with his chum [Everett Brown in the late Borden trial as 'Me and Brownie' was arraigned Monday in district court." Source: Fall River Weekly News, Wednesday, October 11, 1893.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:10 pm

Lizzie also states in the Inquest (page 59): "Q- You do not remember of talking about washing the windows? A- I don't remember whether I did nor not; I didn't remember it. Yes, I remember; yes, I asked her to shut the parlour blinds when she got through because the sun was so hot." Knowlton did not prompt her about the weather at all. Also, Hymon Lubinsky, testified for the Defense to show Lizzie *was* in the barn, he was at odds with the police claim that she was not, yet he also stated that it was hot. How could he have an *agenda* for saying it was hot?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:35 am

Either the "sun was so hot" was in one of the articles I referred to or it's posted here, earlier? That's a good point- it was explained somehow tho.
Anyone have these LBQ's BTW?

[edit here:]Actually, I think a year later is a little too out of reach for this question (Lubinsky), don't you think?
But we don't have an earlier interview with him on record.
I was thinking more like Witness Statements, inquest, maybe Prelim?
By trial, the *hot* question was established..

[Add here]- I'm thinking more about Lizzie's supposed comment. Those parlour windows face north and west. At between 9 a.m. and 9:30 a.m. which might have been when she made the comment- the sun would be in the east behind the house. She may have been recalling the week previously where the sun was hot, or any time when the sun shone into the parlour from the west. But she doesn't use the parlour. So I don't understand why she claims she said that.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:01 pm

Remembering a significant day from a year ago is no big stretch. I could tell you which outdoor wedding receptions I worked last year which were *hot*. I'm sure everyone remembered the day of the Borden murders for the rest of their lives.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:29 pm

Here are some Prelim: Dr. Dolan (page 111) - Q- Was it a very hot day? A- It was sir. Philip Harrington (page 395) - (re barn) It was very warm up there. Bridget (page 26) - Q- How did you usually warm up the soup with coal or wood? A- In hot weather, we usually used the wood. Q- You let the coal fire go out? A- Yes sir.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:37 pm

I would also think Lubinsky would esp recall hot days as he was selling icecream.

diana · Post by **diana** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:37 pm

Also in the Preliminary Hearing -- Bridget is asked about the small ironing board:
"Q: Mrs. Borden and Lizzie and you were in the habit of using that for ironing small things; and they did it on the dining room table?
A: Yes Sir, if it was hot weather; sometimes they did it in the kitchen.
Q: That was the custom with that small ironing board?
A: Yes, Sir.
Q: You said Lizzie was ironing or trying to iron in the dining room?
A: Yes Sir." (Prelim., 232)

To me, this exchange conveys that the dining room table was used in hot weather -- otherwise they ironed in the kitchen.

And this questioning is not by the prosecution but by Lizzie's defense counsel, Adams. He seems to know that they ironed in the dining room when it was hot, and is trying to elicit this information from Bridget. Did he learn that from Lizzie, I wonder? And, if so, why would he want to bring in the temperature issue?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:14 pm

Thanks for citations!
The agenda to which I referred could work either way. It's a spin put on.
I'm trying to figure out why anyone would spin the info.
Firstly, I think they weren't sure if it was hot or not. Then I think they wanted to show that Lizzie would not be ironing wearing silk if it was hot- to blow that *alibi*- wasn't Abby supposedly dying then? (They thought).
Then to say it was too hot for Lizzie to be in the loft for 20 minutes to 30 minutes.
It argues against both her persuits which she claims she was doing when the folks were killed.
It also calls into question her dress?
Now why the defense went along with it is a good question and I don't know. Maybe we can figure it out?

The guys who wrote about this all live in the New England area: Prof. Starrs (Maryland?), Prof. Rychebusch, Prof. Masterton (I don't know where he lives but he presented at the Conference), Ed Thibault and our own William Schley-Urlich.
I would think among the professors etc, they would at least think about breeze and humidity factors.
I think what raised the question for them were certain references made like Me&Brownie, and also that Andrew donned a cardigan jacket when he came home, it's thought he wore a Prince Albert coat, supposedly he was asked by Lizzie if he wanted the window *left that way*, Lizzie's clothes.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:34 pm

Kat @ Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:46 pm wrote:. Me & Brownie were up there the day of the murder- I'm not referring to the pigeons.

I was talking about the day of the murder also. What I was saying was, they could've also been the ones who committed the robbery of the pigeons and were enjoying their good joke on the police. Is there any corroborating evidence that Me and Brownie were ever up in the loft, besides the testimony of Me and Brownie? Kids pulling a prank, wanting in the limelight? Stranger things have happened.I tend to think it was hot there.

As for everyone being asked about it being hot first, and then answering that yes it was, well if it wasn't hot...all they had to do was say no...it wasn't that hot. I don't see where that line of thinking goes. And at a trial, or an inquest, you usually are asked questions before you answer them. That doesn't make the answers any less true. If that is true, then the whole of the trial testimony is suspect.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:37 pm

Kat @ Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:14 pm wrote: Firstly, I think they weren't sure if it was hot or not. .

I don't see how someone who lived there, was there at the time, and probably would remember the day of the murders for the rest of their lives, wouldn't know if it was hot or not. Where were they not in Fall River on the day of the murders?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:29 pm

I'm giving information and wondering along with you all as well.
I figured that since it was a traumatic day- I would take that into account. Witnesses who are trumatised are not especially reliable as we all know. Also these were not sophisticated people. If you speak to the ice cream man and he barely has English and by 1893 everyone is on the *hot* boat- that can explain his testimony. I'm not ruling out anyone's opinion back then. I still think there is a possibility that the thought was planted and people went with it. It's good strategy on the part of the state.
Other than that, I was talking to Len Rebello and asked him about living in Fall River explicitly to do with summer and heat and humidity.
(I try to find out things from every source I can). My mind is not made up on anything. I deal in possibilities, because I wasn't there.
He said last week is a good example of hot. He said it was about 72 degrees but it was so humid that if you just turned around the sweat would pour off you. That there are hills and valleys in Fall River and those valleys can collect the *heat* and just seem stifling. It's the humidity. I asked if my 95 degrees here with 95 degree humidity wasn't the same as anywhere else's 95 degrees and 95 % humidity and he said no. Now I may not understand this, but he talked about it being flat here (he's been to Florida) and hilly in Fall River. And so we might get breezes (we are a peninsula) with those same temps and it not be so hot but if you are in a valley in Fall River with no breeze same temps and humidity it's going to seem hotter. I asked him if he meant they feel the humidity more in a valley location and if so, in 1892, why didn't the word *humidity* make it into any of the testimony? I mean, they had it- they could measure it. He said up there they just say it's hot- they don't bring up the humidity.
So that's my other source for you all.

diana · Post by **diana** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:59 pm

Very informative pass-on from Len Rebello. Thank you, Kat. That might explain Augusta's posted comments about how hot Fall River felt to her on some of her visits. I've only been there in May -- so don't have any personal experience with summer heat in that part of the country.

Sort of on topic, I remember reading a novel called "August" about a girl in therapy in Manhattan -- the title referred to the fact that psychiatrists tended to leave the city in August because it was so hot and all their patients had to suffer through that month without them.

I know we've seen evidence from weather bureau sources seeming to show it was almost a myth that the the Borden murders were committed on a stifling hot day. But I have to admit that personally, the weight of the testimony, newspaper reportage etc. still leaves me with the conviction that as William Moody said in his opening statement to the jury: "This day, August 4, 1892, was one of the hottest days of last summer in this vicinity." (Trial,75)

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:31 pm

I would have to agree, the hell with the weather
station stats, if I were on the jury I would go with
the testimony of people there on that day, it was a
hot day.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:31 pm

There is also the matter of being in different places at the same time. Len brought that up. So that might also add sme confusion.
That's correct about summer places-He said if one were in Sawnsea that day, because of the elevation, it wouldn't seem as hot. That's why people had summer retreats. Which makes sense.
So if say someone was in the area but nearer the ocean it would not seem as hot. It sounds like those who thought it was hot might have been in a hot area- one of these valleys.

I can't go by Augusta because she tells me often that she suffers terribly from the heat, anytime anywhere.

I think the word "vicinity" is exactly right, Diana.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:12 pm

I just don't believe there was any *agenda* for saying it was hot when it wasn't, other than the fact the police wanted to prove Lizzie guilty & were grasping at everything. Lubinsky would not have heard any of the other testimonies about the weather (it was a big issue not having witnesses in the court room to hear other witnesses' testimonies), so he wouldn't be jumping on any "hot" bandwagon. I should think Dolan would be a reliable witness. As a doctor, esp a medical examiner, I don't see him being traumatized. Besides, we don't have a single person saying it was a comfortable, pleasant summer day with a nice breeze, etc. I just put a lot more faith into people who were at 92 Second St on Aug 4, 1892 than I do researches looking at 100 year old weather reports. You can't even count on weather reports in 2005.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:29 pm

Once people knew of the crime and were scurrying about and collecting in large crowds it had to have felt stifling... No shorts, no tank tops, no ice cold soda machine on the corner at the 7-11.

I am inclined to think it was hot.. I lived in Boston and the humidity was terrible in the summer...

Not only did the clothing have to had made them feel hotter-- But no microwave for a quick, don't heat the kitchen up meal. No calling for a pizza to be delivered to avoid lighting the stove. No cool showers-- Just baths-- and not everyday. Putting on the same (I sweat like a pig in it yesterday) dress. Think of those undergarments... How many of us (woman) wear panty-hose or stockings when it is that hot out and you are just going to stay home? Or if you do-- whip them off as soon as you get home?

Think of it.. No where to escape the heat. No air conditioned offices/theatres or cars.

You sit in it day after day... If it had been a hot summer-- unless it was a significantly cooler day no one would notice. It would have had to have been remarkably cool for anyone to notice-- and then they would have talked about it. "My, it is so cool today! What a relief."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:26 am

This is not testimony, obviously. But it is an excerpt which seems to show the reasoning behind what the prosecution was trying to prove- which was to discredit Lizzie's story. This was a key issue and an important point and maybe that is why the debate. The emphasis was mentioned earlier here by someone:

"Current Comment.

Lizzie Borden is a presumably innocent person in the eyes of the law until proved otherwise, yet from the talk on the train, in the railway stations and in Taunton and Fall River, one might readily believe nothing stood between her and the gallows. The strongest evidence against Miss Lizzie she is understood to have introduced herself. One of the officials who was present stated that as she proceeded with her story the case against her grew blacker and blacker. The most important parts of her testimony were tested. On the point of time that she remained in the loft great stress was brought to bear. It was held that the loft on a hot day was like an oven and it was considered impossible, to say the least, that a refined and cultured lady, unaccustomed to hardship, would remain in such a place for 20 minutes unless something imperative demanded it, when she could have remained quietly in a cool room within doors and waited until a cooler part of the day before making her search for the lead or whatever else she was after. She was forced to repeat her story time after time, and the prospect ahead look darker as her examination proceeded. Although the impression cannot be fully confirmed, it is growing that Miss Lizzie was the strongest witness against herself. Inconsistencies did not necessarily have great weight, but parts of her story were regarded as improbable."...
--New Bedford Evening Standard,Saturday, August 13, 1892 Page 2
--Agenda, emphasis, spin- whatever one wants to call it. This illustrates the line the prosecution was going to take and they did proceed with this emphasis throughout the case. Every prosecution has what I might call an agenda- necessarily so.
I am thinking too, that they reshearse witnesses too, don't they? Each side has to know ahead of time what their witness will testify to- that is proceedure isn't it? They don't wish to be thought of as leading or tampering, of course. But coaching was allowed back then, wasn't it?
It's agreed that it could very well have been hot.
What I'd like to see is if this suited the defense as well, in their strategy, and why?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:47 am

I don't know if it was as hot as is generally accepted and as bad as the "legend" has come down to us. Not all people feel the heat the same way.

While in the army and stationed in Panama I got to know extreme humidity. The Canal Zone sits between two oceans and has daily rains during the rainy season. It is always HUMID. Some soldiers functioned normally and seemed oblivious to it, others were quite uncomfortable.

One thing I did notice in reading the testimonys of Alice Russell and Addie Churchill is that they fanned Lizzie with a "paper". This would seem to indicate a fan was not there. I should think if it was that hot, a fan or fans would have been readily available.

Kent, however, in "Forty Whacks", says they used a fan with the FR Ice company advertisement on it. I don't know his source for that information.

From what I remember, I think the maximum temperature that day was 83°, and that was in the afternoon. If I look at a Heat Index chart, which allegedly measures the effect of humidity on the "feel" of temperature I don't see much effect at all when the temperature is 80° no matter what the humidity is. See this site from the Weather Channel:

http://www.weather.com/encyclopedia/cha ... index.html

I also think age, weight and physical condition play a large part in how one perceives the heat.

And I don't see any mention that I can recall of anyone sweating. Perhaps that was not discussed in polite society.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:04 am

I have to say I was a little confused by that chart. The air temperature down the left side would be the actual temperature, the relative humidity across the top. That of course is easy to distinguish. But those lines across the middle for the apparent temperature, or how how it feels, are harder to decipher. I noticed that it says the heat index applies to shady light wind conditions.

"The heat index also applies to shady, light wind conditions, so it feels even hotter than the heat index if a person is in direct sun. In the midst of a hot, dry, wind a person would also feel hotter than the heat index value due to the wind effects. "

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:11 am

http://www.il-st-acad-sci.org/kingdom/geo1013.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Important:
since heat index values were devised for shady, light wind conditions, exposure to full sunshine can increase heat index values by up to 15 degrees fahrenheit.

http://www.thetornado.com/conversions/hiindex.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if it was 80 degrees with a relative humidity of 90% if you were standing in the shade it could feel like 88 degrees. If you weren't standing in the shade, and were standing in the full sun, it could feel as hot as 95 degrees.