Original Floorplan
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- Yooper
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Original Floorplan
Was the front stairway in the Borden house added at some time, or was it original? The reason I ask is in the photograph showing the Borden house from the space between the Kelly house and the Borden house, the Borden house seems to show two kitchen windows, two sitting room windows, and a single window just west of the sitting room windows on the first floor. There is a corresponding window on the second floor. Wouldn't the staiway interfere with the first floor window? It doesn't seem likely that the sitting room closet would need a window.
Assuming the house was originally upper and lower flats, if the stairway was not original to the house, it would allow a foyer downstairs and an additional bedroom off the sitting room upstairs.
Assuming the house was originally upper and lower flats, if the stairway was not original to the house, it would allow a foyer downstairs and an additional bedroom off the sitting room upstairs.
- Harry
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Re: Original Floorplan
I asked that question several years ago and was advised by the former curator of the house that the steps are original.Yooper @ Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:39 pm wrote:Was the front stairway in the Borden house added at some time, or was it original? The reason I ask is in the photograph showing the Borden house from the space between the Kelly house and the Borden house, the Borden house seems to show two kitchen windows, two sitting room windows, and a single window just west of the sitting room windows on the first floor. There is a corresponding window on the second floor. Wouldn't the staiway interfere with the first floor window? It doesn't seem likely that the sitting room closet would need a window.
Assuming the house was originally upper and lower flats, if the stairway was not original to the house, it would allow a foyer downstairs and an additional bedroom off the sitting room upstairs.
The window you mention is a faux window for appearance purposes to balance off the window above it. The above window provided light for the staircase.
This photo shows the demolition of the Leary Press building and you can see the fake window.

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THAT looks like a window that was boarded up due to a conversion. Ever see old stores whose windows were closed up to convert it to housing?
You may be right, because you are more involved with these things. But I have seen many homes whose windows were bricked up or made smaller when rooms were converted, as for a bathroom. My experiences differ.
You may be right, because you are more involved with these things. But I have seen many homes whose windows were bricked up or made smaller when rooms were converted, as for a bathroom. My experiences differ.
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I guess I'll have to do some research. Some books have the floor plan drawn from the 1890s.
We know that Andy made changes when he took over that house, converted 2 bedrooms into the dining room downstairs. I don't believe a thrifty Yankee would spend money on "style" in those days. IMO
We know that Andy made changes when he took over that house, converted 2 bedrooms into the dining room downstairs. I don't believe a thrifty Yankee would spend money on "style" in those days. IMO
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- Harry
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Yooper, one more thing. The floor plan used at the trial does NOT show a window at that location on the first floor. It does show the window on the second floor.
I have also examined about 4 or 5 other floor plans and NONE of them show a window.
This portion of a photo, taken in I believe 1893, shows the south side of the house and that "window".

If the staircase is original, and I would not doubt the curator who actually lived in the house for a few years, then the stairs are behind this "window". Not much need for an actual window.
I have also examined about 4 or 5 other floor plans and NONE of them show a window.
This portion of a photo, taken in I believe 1893, shows the south side of the house and that "window".

If the staircase is original, and I would not doubt the curator who actually lived in the house for a few years, then the stairs are behind this "window". Not much need for an actual window.
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Yes Yooper, Harry, Rays:
I have been in many such houses. It is very doubtful that anything was done with the front stairway since the house was built. To do so would be major surgery. There really is no reason to do so. I would add that even the front entry was unchanged before and when Lizzzie lived there. But if the original doors to the Parlor and Sitting room are still there it would be interesting to see what sort of locks they had in the past. Inspection of the doors on Emma's room and the guest bedroom should also prove interesting. These were all entrance doors to the first and second floor flats, from the front entry way and staircase.
When it was a two story flat one would come in the front door, which was a common entry, and up the stairs to another common entry, before entering the second floor apartment. If you look at the floor plans the back entry you will find the same. Both entrys front and rear are similar when entering. I found this to be true in many old Fall River homes where little to no changes were made. The same for the false window, where though not as common, I have witnessed many times in the past. Andrew did almost no construction other than locks and such. That is to say, he did not remove stairways and relocate them or did any major constructional changes. I feel very strongly about that.

- Harry
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Andrew did make at least one change. Originally on the first floor in what was to become the dining room, was two separate rooms. See Emma's room and Abby's dressing room on the second floor. Andrew had that wall removed on the first floor to make the dining room.
It's also interesting that the current owners left the fake window outline in place. Most cool.
It's also interesting that the current owners left the fake window outline in place. Most cool.
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Yes Harry, it is good fortune that they had the foresight to leave that false window in place. But also it is architecturally correct.
I have been planning to do my place over. It has shank type shingles. It was originally built with clapboard. Similar to 92 Second. To rip off the shingles and return the building to original clapboard shingles would be a monumental expense. Especially for a 3 decker. The old clapboard are under the shanks but their condition is dubious at best. Whether they can be saved and made to look pleasing is an unlikely scenerio.
Also the main balusters or Victorian columns that hold up my front porch are rotted to the core. Not only would the expense be restrictive to duplicate them, finding someone to do it is difficult. It is becoming a lost art, if you can't purchase it at Home Depot, four-geta-bout-it. There are many beautiful ones that I can order but I would like to keep the ones that were original to the house. If they can be duplicated that would be satisfactory.
But it is important to me to keep the house as close to how it was or would be constructed in it's time.
Some become fanatical an insist that their house be painted the same color it was when built. Good for them. Wish I was that dedicated. But that is a minor issue. The main thing here is to save the building as close to the appearance it displayed when built. But I will allow my house to rot to the ground before I ever use vinyl.
About that false window. I have seen them with Shutters also, in which case you could not tell whether there was a real window behind it or not.
CouL
I have been planning to do my place over. It has shank type shingles. It was originally built with clapboard. Similar to 92 Second. To rip off the shingles and return the building to original clapboard shingles would be a monumental expense. Especially for a 3 decker. The old clapboard are under the shanks but their condition is dubious at best. Whether they can be saved and made to look pleasing is an unlikely scenerio.
Also the main balusters or Victorian columns that hold up my front porch are rotted to the core. Not only would the expense be restrictive to duplicate them, finding someone to do it is difficult. It is becoming a lost art, if you can't purchase it at Home Depot, four-geta-bout-it. There are many beautiful ones that I can order but I would like to keep the ones that were original to the house. If they can be duplicated that would be satisfactory.
But it is important to me to keep the house as close to how it was or would be constructed in it's time.
Some become fanatical an insist that their house be painted the same color it was when built. Good for them. Wish I was that dedicated. But that is a minor issue. The main thing here is to save the building as close to the appearance it displayed when built. But I will allow my house to rot to the ground before I ever use vinyl.
About that false window. I have seen them with Shutters also, in which case you could not tell whether there was a real window behind it or not.
CouL

- Kat
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Michael, are you describing two 2 story flats?
I thought the house had been two single story flats?
Lizzie had mentioned the original owner as living downstairs until his own house was ready and after he moved they *always had the whole.*
Andrew also took out a kitchen in the second story that became his and Abby's bedroom.
I thought the house had been two single story flats?
Lizzie had mentioned the original owner as living downstairs until his own house was ready and after he moved they *always had the whole.*
Andrew also took out a kitchen in the second story that became his and Abby's bedroom.
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Yes Kat sorry about the confusion. The post I posted just above this one, I was speaking about the building I live in. The post above that, describing the front hallway entrance, was about 92.
As Harry had pointed out, Andrew did very little construction to the house, other than knocking down a wall turning two rooms on the first floor into one, that being the dinning room.
As the front hallway, both first and second levels, were common hallways when the place was 2 separate flats (apartments) these two hallways became open space, more appropriately described as foyers, when it became one big house, after Borden purchased it.
Oh, I see what you are asking now Kat:
No 92 had 2 apartments, (flats) one on the first floor and one on the second floor. The front hallway at that time was a common hallway and entrance for both floors. If you lived on the 2nd floor you would come in the main entrance, continue up the stairs to the 2nd landing. Once there the doors to Emma's room and the front guest room would be locked. These would be entrance doors to the 2nd level flat. The same was true about the rear entrance.
Now, if you lived on the 2nd level apartment and you came in the front door, you would find two other doors inside. One into the first floor sitting room and one into the palor. Both these doors would have had locks on them and both were entrances into the first floor apartment. Unless they kept the front door locked (the one facing the street) the front hallway could have been open to the public, as many are today.
When it was two flats Andrew and Abby's bedroom was the Kitchen for the 2nd floor apartment.
Also the guest bedroom, where Abby was found dead, was the Palor for the 2nd floor flat.
Does that make sense?
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As I mentioned before, Andrew made very little changes to the building once it was in his pocession.
One that you mention Harry is knocking down a wall to make the dinning room.
Another he must have had to make was to turn the 2nd floor kitchen into his bedroom, removing the stove and any cabinets that may have been there.
Also Harry, I would be willing to bet that Andrew Borden built the closet on the second floor foyer. This would be wasted space. The one above the front entrance. When the house had 2 flats I would be willing to bet that that closet was not there and that the 2nd floor foyer had an open plan. As we all know that closet was an issue of contention during the trial, as to if someone was hiding there.......... (?)
Would be interesting to find out if this was so?
One that you mention Harry is knocking down a wall to make the dinning room.
Another he must have had to make was to turn the 2nd floor kitchen into his bedroom, removing the stove and any cabinets that may have been there.
Also Harry, I would be willing to bet that Andrew Borden built the closet on the second floor foyer. This would be wasted space. The one above the front entrance. When the house had 2 flats I would be willing to bet that that closet was not there and that the 2nd floor foyer had an open plan. As we all know that closet was an issue of contention during the trial, as to if someone was hiding there.......... (?)
Would be interesting to find out if this was so?

- Kat
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Yes Michael. I had my first tour of the house under the auspices of the museum curator, Bill Pavao. I learned at his knee so to speak. I've also written about the changes to the house over time by interviewing people and by reading old newspapers and verifying that. See Hatchet issue June/July 2005.
And our tour of the house by Bill I wrote about in The Hatchet, issues: "The Borden House Frame By Frame," "The Borden House Frame By Frame: Part 2," thru Part 4, April/May 2004, June/July 2004, August/September 2004, and Dec/Jan 2004.
I know you've been in lots of area housees and your experience and knowledge is unique and is invaluable!
I was really only asking you whether you meant to imply two 2 story flats- meaning the house split in half vertically, rather than by floor level- horizontally -because I was a bit confused by your wording.
I did mention the kitchen being renovated into a bedroom. The stove that was *stored* in the attic room supposedly came from that renovation. I had asked around about that stove because it is mentioned in testimony and I thought it might have been used to destroy evidence if it was hooked up. That got me very interested in the second kitchen.
And our tour of the house by Bill I wrote about in The Hatchet, issues: "The Borden House Frame By Frame," "The Borden House Frame By Frame: Part 2," thru Part 4, April/May 2004, June/July 2004, August/September 2004, and Dec/Jan 2004.
I know you've been in lots of area housees and your experience and knowledge is unique and is invaluable!
I was really only asking you whether you meant to imply two 2 story flats- meaning the house split in half vertically, rather than by floor level- horizontally -because I was a bit confused by your wording.
I did mention the kitchen being renovated into a bedroom. The stove that was *stored* in the attic room supposedly came from that renovation. I had asked around about that stove because it is mentioned in testimony and I thought it might have been used to destroy evidence if it was hooked up. That got me very interested in the second kitchen.
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Yes Kat: Please forgive what may have come across as architectual arrogance. Of course I was just voicing off the cuff opinions based on pass experience with such buildings. Again for the sake of conversation. I was careful to talk about matters and practices that I was more or less sure of, but prepared for someone to cite me wrong, put me in my place and take my lickings.
I will need to see which Hatchet volumes I have of the ones you mentioned. I have always loved architectual design and building practices, especially old homes. Your article should be a treat.
The Borden House is an excellent example of an old house which has gone thru countless generations and fared well all things considered. Changes made to that building are few and it shows. I also marvel that it has survived intact. I'm surprise that the Leary press never punched out the south wall and utilized the first floor of 92 for the business.
The reason the building has survived has little to do with the fact that it was the Borden house. It just has been lucky with a series of owners. Most of the last century citizens of Fall River could have cared less what happen to that building. In the early 1900s it was just a murder site, an embarrassment to the city. And that Lizzie did not tear it down herself is a wonder.
Sorry for going on and on and trying to sound like an authority on Architecture.


In any of your writings or studies Kat has anything ever been mentioned about the closet on the second floor front entry and whether it is original to the house?

- Kat
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If you mean the girl's dress closet, I would bet it was there from the beginning. I don't think I asked specifically about that. The house in Newmarket where Emma lived has the same closet-type room at the top of the stairs as the Borden house from what I was told.
Tho the room was there, the modern owner is not sure what it was used for.
The way the lower level family would enter and which would be their front door- vs. the way the upper level family would have entered and used as their front door has been a fascinating discussion among us in the past. Your experience in this and description of which area would be designated to which family is very helpful. Also we had been trying to figure out who *got* the cellar and who *got* the attic, or whether they became 'common rooms.'
The fact that Harry wondered about those front stairs as being original, is enough for me to think this certainly is a valid discussion.
Tho the room was there, the modern owner is not sure what it was used for.
The way the lower level family would enter and which would be their front door- vs. the way the upper level family would have entered and used as their front door has been a fascinating discussion among us in the past. Your experience in this and description of which area would be designated to which family is very helpful. Also we had been trying to figure out who *got* the cellar and who *got* the attic, or whether they became 'common rooms.'
The fact that Harry wondered about those front stairs as being original, is enough for me to think this certainly is a valid discussion.

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Yes Kat, I also find it very interesting
The back entrance would also be a common hallway. Once you went past the back door, including the screen door, you would find yourself in a common hallway containing the stairway to the second level. On the first floor the door that went directly into the kitchen was a locked door and the main entrance into the first floor apartment. Above that was another common hallway with another door going into the second floor kitchen. This door would be locked since it was the main back entrance into the second floor apartment. This is all conjecture on my part you understand. But I am certain that this is the way it was set up.
Much has changed, but in the early 70s there were many homes in and around Fall River set up just this way. New Bedford was full of them.
If I am correct I woud imagine the the entire basement was a common area, unless you were the landlord and wanted the area locked for his use only.
The 3rd floor attic was used for storage, being a common area in general. I remember hearing stories about these being rented out as rooms. No bath or toilet. But many that I have seen looked unused and later turned into apartments. That is from my experience and I can not say what was in the builders mind for the attic areas. Many consisted of a long hallway with bedrooms to the left and right. I have seen them with and without locks on the doors going into these rooms. (old skeleton key type locks.) When asking landlords what the areas were used for many told me they were rented by the room in the 20s and 30s. Minimal at best.
But I think many were kept empty. A common area of no use, since people had very little back then. Or probably used for the same reason the bordens used it, to room the maid. The building I live in now was constructed in a similar way with a similar attic. Not sure when it was turned into an apartment, but by the brass pipes I found up there I would say around the 20s or 30s. What did they use it for before then, I would guess again as open common space.
The back entrance would also be a common hallway. Once you went past the back door, including the screen door, you would find yourself in a common hallway containing the stairway to the second level. On the first floor the door that went directly into the kitchen was a locked door and the main entrance into the first floor apartment. Above that was another common hallway with another door going into the second floor kitchen. This door would be locked since it was the main back entrance into the second floor apartment. This is all conjecture on my part you understand. But I am certain that this is the way it was set up.
Much has changed, but in the early 70s there were many homes in and around Fall River set up just this way. New Bedford was full of them.
If I am correct I woud imagine the the entire basement was a common area, unless you were the landlord and wanted the area locked for his use only.
The 3rd floor attic was used for storage, being a common area in general. I remember hearing stories about these being rented out as rooms. No bath or toilet. But many that I have seen looked unused and later turned into apartments. That is from my experience and I can not say what was in the builders mind for the attic areas. Many consisted of a long hallway with bedrooms to the left and right. I have seen them with and without locks on the doors going into these rooms. (old skeleton key type locks.) When asking landlords what the areas were used for many told me they were rented by the room in the 20s and 30s. Minimal at best.
But I think many were kept empty. A common area of no use, since people had very little back then. Or probably used for the same reason the bordens used it, to room the maid. The building I live in now was constructed in a similar way with a similar attic. Not sure when it was turned into an apartment, but by the brass pipes I found up there I would say around the 20s or 30s. What did they use it for before then, I would guess again as open common space.
- Kat
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It is very interesting. We have surmised as much but had not confirmation. Thanks.
So, we might be able to undestand that so many interior doors locked because they had been and still were private areas, and that locked doors in the Borden home was not so unusual. (?)
(Especially as the Borden's did seem to split the house into 2 vertical *apartment* areas with common rooms which were not locked).
So, we might be able to undestand that so many interior doors locked because they had been and still were private areas, and that locked doors in the Borden home was not so unusual. (?)
(Especially as the Borden's did seem to split the house into 2 vertical *apartment* areas with common rooms which were not locked).
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The front stairs just never looked like they were original to me. Can't exactly say why.
Perhaps it's because they start too close to the front door. It was mentioned at one of the hearings that if the front door was open (it opens in) that the door blocked the staircase from being used.
That open door brings up the question of whether a person could see someone entering the front door from the upstairs landing as the door would block their view. Bridget testified that Andrew didn't say anything when he entered and she said only her famous "pshaw" while fumbling with the locks. Would the person upstairs, whoever it was, know it was Andrew returning? Aha, an experiment to try on the next visit!
I also try to imagine the house without the front staircase. The front door would be for the downstairs apartment and the side door for the upstairs apartment. As soon as one enters the side door there are the stairs leading up. There was also a bell on what I believe was Andrew and Abby's bedroom door. How this was operated, or connected to, I don't know. It is not there now.
I believe the stairs are original but it's fun to speculate.
Perhaps it's because they start too close to the front door. It was mentioned at one of the hearings that if the front door was open (it opens in) that the door blocked the staircase from being used.
That open door brings up the question of whether a person could see someone entering the front door from the upstairs landing as the door would block their view. Bridget testified that Andrew didn't say anything when he entered and she said only her famous "pshaw" while fumbling with the locks. Would the person upstairs, whoever it was, know it was Andrew returning? Aha, an experiment to try on the next visit!
I also try to imagine the house without the front staircase. The front door would be for the downstairs apartment and the side door for the upstairs apartment. As soon as one enters the side door there are the stairs leading up. There was also a bell on what I believe was Andrew and Abby's bedroom door. How this was operated, or connected to, I don't know. It is not there now.
I believe the stairs are original but it's fun to speculate.
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I thought the stairs looked a bit awkward, too. They seem to be designed to fit a limited space. That calls for a short tread and/or a tall riser.
The arrangement seems to create a lack of privacy for each of the two flats, but maybe that wasn't a primary consideration when the house was built. Even with the existing floorplan, a second front door and a wall where the stairway railing is would probably be necessary for privacy. The building design creates a fair amount of common space between the two flats. Since the common front door exists, if a front entrance was desired for the upstairs flat, the stairs pretty well had to go where we find them.
The rear stairway seems less intrusive with respect to privacy. I'm thinking the upper and lower corner sink rooms might have been icebox rooms if iceboxes were in common use in the mid 1800s. I've lived in flats built circa 1890-1900 and they had a space in the rear hallway for an icebox.
The arrangement seems to create a lack of privacy for each of the two flats, but maybe that wasn't a primary consideration when the house was built. Even with the existing floorplan, a second front door and a wall where the stairway railing is would probably be necessary for privacy. The building design creates a fair amount of common space between the two flats. Since the common front door exists, if a front entrance was desired for the upstairs flat, the stairs pretty well had to go where we find them.
The rear stairway seems less intrusive with respect to privacy. I'm thinking the upper and lower corner sink rooms might have been icebox rooms if iceboxes were in common use in the mid 1800s. I've lived in flats built circa 1890-1900 and they had a space in the rear hallway for an icebox.
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I think that window by the front stairs was real. You would need some light in an otherwise windowless staircase (before electricity, and no gas).
The picture from 1893 does show the window w/ shutters closed. Even then enough light to show the way.
Those who love to contradict me can take their shots.
The picture from 1893 does show the window w/ shutters closed. Even then enough light to show the way.
Those who love to contradict me can take their shots.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Speaking of experiments Harry...
I'm sure noise tests must have been conducted at Second Street (hatchet sounds; could downstairs conversations be overheard in Lizzie's room?; what could Bridget hear in the rafters?; open window test; window washing test; etc). I've tried doing a search on the forum but no luck yet on finding previous threads. I think I'm just having a bad search day...also cannot find ruddy pension decision from 1993...annoying me no end! But I digress....
If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it!
trish.
I'm sure noise tests must have been conducted at Second Street (hatchet sounds; could downstairs conversations be overheard in Lizzie's room?; what could Bridget hear in the rafters?; open window test; window washing test; etc). I've tried doing a search on the forum but no luck yet on finding previous threads. I think I'm just having a bad search day...also cannot find ruddy pension decision from 1993...annoying me no end! But I digress....
If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it!
trish.
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Harry @ Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:57 am wrote:The front stairs just never looked like they were original to me. Can't exactly say why.
Perhaps it's because they start too close to the front door. It was mentioned at one of the hearings that if the front door was open (it opens in) that the door blocked the staircase from being used.
That open door brings up the question of whether a person could see someone entering the front door from the upstairs landing as the door would block their view. Bridget testified that Andrew didn't say anything when he entered and she said only her famous "pshaw" while fumbling with the locks. Would the person upstairs, whoever it was, know it was Andrew returning? Aha, an experiment to try on the next visit!
I also try to imagine the house without the front staircase. The front door would be for the downstairs apartment and the side door for the upstairs apartment. As soon as one enters the side door there are the stairs leading up. There was also a bell on what I believe was Andrew and Abby's bedroom door. How this was operated, or connected to, I don't know. It is not there now.
I believe the stairs are original but it's fun to speculate.
I don't know off hand if someone upstairs would be able to see who came in or not but if Lizzie was upstairs wouldn't she be able to pretty much guess it was Andrew since Bridget didn't say anything to the person who entered the room? In other words if it was some stranger she might ask who they were before she let them in and if it was someone she knew she'd ask why they were there etc.
Why did Andrew and Abby have a bell on their bedroom door? I can understand a door that leads to the outside but their bedroom.
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There was a scene in one of the videos- the one where Bill Pavao won best actor in all videos-
where he is *Billy Borden* and he enters the front door as Morse leaves. The perspective is from the upper hallway I believe because we are looking down on them. The door was open about 90 degrees, I think I recall.
Of course that is not open as far as the base of the stairway, it is just at right angle to the doorframe.

Of course that is not open as far as the base of the stairway, it is just at right angle to the doorframe.
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Didn't Uncle John leave by the back door? With others talking to him?Kat @ Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:05 am wrote:There was a scene in one of the videos- the one where Bill Pavao won best actor in all videos-where he is *Billy Borden* and he enters the front door as Morse leaves. The perspective is from the upper hallway I believe because we are looking down on them. The door was open about 90 degrees, I think I recall.
Of course that is not open as far as the base of the stairway, it is just at right angle to the doorframe.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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If you zoom in at the pictures of the house from the 1890's there appears to be shutters on the fake window. That could have just been a couple of strips of wood on a fake window running vertical to give it the appearance of being real. The strips were not there when they tore down the Leary press, as you can see from the picture.RayS @ Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:29 am wrote:I think that window by the front stairs was real. You would need some light in an otherwise windowless staircase (before electricity, and no gas).
The picture from 1893 does show the window w/ shutters closed. Even then enough light to show the way.
Those who love to contradict me can take their shots.
What is a Picture, but the capture of a moment in time.
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Fargo, you are 100% correct. The window was never there nor real. What we see is strictly cosmetic.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to convince some people otherwise.
Behind that FAKE window is the stairs. Just what the house needed was a window covered by the stairs. The light from the second floor window and the light from the glass panels on either side of the front door is more than sufficient to provide enough light.
And if someone thinks Andrew would be too cheap to build a false window, it would be a hell of lot cheaper to build a false window than a real one.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to convince some people otherwise.
Behind that FAKE window is the stairs. Just what the house needed was a window covered by the stairs. The light from the second floor window and the light from the glass panels on either side of the front door is more than sufficient to provide enough light.
And if someone thinks Andrew would be too cheap to build a false window, it would be a hell of lot cheaper to build a false window than a real one.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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I agree, the only purpose to the false window was to balance the exterior facade, it correlated to the window on the second floor. This might be viewed as an extravagance by today's standards, but it fits with Victorian standards.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Arnold Brown's book has the floorplan from the 1893 trial. It does not show a first floor window near the front. There is a second floor window, which would provide light in an otherwise dark room.Yooper @ Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:30 am wrote:I agree, the only purpose to the false window was to balance the exterior facade, it correlated to the window on the second floor. This might be viewed as an extravagance by today's standards, but it fits with Victorian standards.
I have seen houses with a small window by entrance or staircase, which could not be opened.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Right, a false window would not show up on the floorplan. I asked the question originally because there was no window on the first story floorplan, but there was what appeared to be a window on the exterior.
I have seen the small windows you describe, I've always referred to them as piano windows because they would accomodate an upright piano beneath. Quite often they contain stained glass. If the object was to illuminate the stairway more directly than from just the second story window, a piano window would make sense. The tradeoff would be a less than perfectly balanced exterior, for whatever that might be worth.
I have seen the small windows you describe, I've always referred to them as piano windows because they would accomodate an upright piano beneath. Quite often they contain stained glass. If the object was to illuminate the stairway more directly than from just the second story window, a piano window would make sense. The tradeoff would be a less than perfectly balanced exterior, for whatever that might be worth.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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It appears that Andrew did the minimum amount of remodelling to make the house useful as a single-family structure. This would ensure the minimum amount of expense to convert it back to separate units if the need arose. He may have been leaving the option of moving open when the remodelling was done.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Re: Original Floorplan
The old floor plan shows a sink in the hall. just to the left, after entering the side screen door. This would be opposite the back stairs going up to the 3rd floor.
I was wondering if that door, and sink have been removed, and also if the closet above the front stairs is still there.
I was wondering if that door, and sink have been removed, and also if the closet above the front stairs is still there.
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Re: Original Floorplan
The upstairs clothes closet is now a bathroom. I don't recall what they did with the ice room. My personal opinion is that the 1st floor sink was in the southeast corner of the kitchen....not in a little room off the side entry.
Read Emma and Alice's descriptions when Lizzie burned the dress. I believe Bridget also has a few episodes she describes that would make the sink being located out of sight of the kitchen not likely.
Lastly, the fact that the cellar sink was in southeast corner, makes it far more plausible that the kitchen sink was directly above it. That allows use of same water and drain lines.
I realize that Kiernan had the sink room by the screen door. I think either he labelled it wrong or he called it a sink room, but the active sink was in the kitchen. Good chance others might hop on this thread and disagree.
Read Emma and Alice's descriptions when Lizzie burned the dress. I believe Bridget also has a few episodes she describes that would make the sink being located out of sight of the kitchen not likely.
Lastly, the fact that the cellar sink was in southeast corner, makes it far more plausible that the kitchen sink was directly above it. That allows use of same water and drain lines.
I realize that Kiernan had the sink room by the screen door. I think either he labelled it wrong or he called it a sink room, but the active sink was in the kitchen. Good chance others might hop on this thread and disagree.
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Re: Original Floorplan
Above is the plan I was thinking of. Is this the Kiernan plan?
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Re: Original Floorplan
Above shows fence line that had barbed wire, I was a little confused reading the testimony as to what area had the barbed wire. Shows across the back yard, but possibly there are other areas.
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Re: Original Floorplan
Interesting, I always thought the sink was where the kitchen NE corner pantry is while reading the testimony. .
—guess I should have looked at the floor plan to see that wasn’t so—
Hmm.. now I’m curious, knowing it wasn’t where the pantry is, but also Lizzie could be seen at the stove from the hallway/sink area, or of coarse if it was at the SE corner of the kitchen.
—guess I should have looked at the floor plan to see that wasn’t so—
Hmm.. now I’m curious, knowing it wasn’t where the pantry is, but also Lizzie could be seen at the stove from the hallway/sink area, or of coarse if it was at the SE corner of the kitchen.
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Re: Original Floorplan
viewtopic.php?t=1659
An excellent thread from 2006 about the original sink/room .
Good points about a dry sink in the kitchen and water carried from the hall sink and heated on the stove in a kettle.
Camgarsky4 we both could be correct. A hall sink, and a dry sink counter in the SE kitchen, or possibly a plumbed sink in the kitchen. I didn’t realize it was such a debated topic.
Plenty of testimony in this thread to make it interesting.
You may find it useful as I know it might affect some of your theories in the case.
An excellent thread from 2006 about the original sink/room .
Good points about a dry sink in the kitchen and water carried from the hall sink and heated on the stove in a kettle.
Camgarsky4 we both could be correct. A hall sink, and a dry sink counter in the SE kitchen, or possibly a plumbed sink in the kitchen. I didn’t realize it was such a debated topic.
Plenty of testimony in this thread to make it interesting.
You may find it useful as I know it might affect some of your theories in the case.
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Re: Original Floorplan
I am convinced that the sink with running water was located in the southeast corner of the kitchen. The cellar sink was in the exact same spot, one level below. I don't think what Emma or Bridget described in multiple testimonies match with themselves being in the sink room next to the side door.
None of the testimony sounds like someone is standing in a little closet (room) and looking out at the activity down the hall in the kitchen. Not once does Bridget or Emma say..."I heard them, but couldn't see them" or "When I heard her come in, I poked my head out to see it was Lizzie."
While I am often cautioned about newspaper accuracy, I have found that everything involved in this case should been viewed skeptically. Testimony, documents. newspapers, and even floor plans.
Seems I am at odds on this particular topic with my friend Kat!

None of the testimony sounds like someone is standing in a little closet (room) and looking out at the activity down the hall in the kitchen. Not once does Bridget or Emma say..."I heard them, but couldn't see them" or "When I heard her come in, I poked my head out to see it was Lizzie."
While I am often cautioned about newspaper accuracy, I have found that everything involved in this case should been viewed skeptically. Testimony, documents. newspapers, and even floor plans.
Seems I am at odds on this particular topic with my friend Kat!



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Re: Original Floorplan
Bridget trial p-271. Speaks of a sink room, and doesn’t sound like it’s the kitchen pantry, rather in addition to. Seems the refrigerator was in the “sink room” at some point. Below Bridget even calls it a room.
Q. Is that the only closet there is in the kitchen?
A. That is the closet, the kitchen closet. There is a little closet there, where the wood and coal was kept, and there is a sink room there where the refrigerator was.
Possibly the sink room was removed by Andrew before the murders, but the floor plan detail of the side hall sink room that even shows the door swing, and possible walk through to the kitchen pantry tell me it was there at or before the crimes.
I hope I don’t sound argumentative, but I am trying to figure out why it’s such an illusive thing to nail down.
Plumbing above the cellar sink, and several testimonies make a strong point for your view.
This case is full of strange twists.
Q. Is that the only closet there is in the kitchen?
A. That is the closet, the kitchen closet. There is a little closet there, where the wood and coal was kept, and there is a sink room there where the refrigerator was.
Possibly the sink room was removed by Andrew before the murders, but the floor plan detail of the side hall sink room that even shows the door swing, and possible walk through to the kitchen pantry tell me it was there at or before the crimes.
I hope I don’t sound argumentative, but I am trying to figure out why it’s such an illusive thing to nail down.
Plumbing above the cellar sink, and several testimonies make a strong point for your view.
This case is full of strange twists.
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Re: Original Floorplan
I suppose the obvious question is, where was the refrigerator?
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Re: Original Floorplan
I think the ice keeper (aka refrigerator) was in what apparently was called the sink room. Perhaps that was its legacy name and use prior to Andrew having water installed (I think he did that in the '70's).
Or perhaps "Allen" was correct and the sink in the kitchen was a dry sink. I don't think so, but it is a possibility.
You aren't being argumentative to disagree with me. There is solid reason to think the sink room was exactly where the functioning sink was located.
Or perhaps "Allen" was correct and the sink in the kitchen was a dry sink. I don't think so, but it is a possibility.
You aren't being argumentative to disagree with me. There is solid reason to think the sink room was exactly where the functioning sink was located.
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Re: Original Floorplan
The attorney tried to get us our answer on where the sink was located, but twice Bridget did not answer his specific question, but provided her own version of an answer. Problem is that 'left' or 'back part' of the kitchen all depends on where one is standing. So her answers really don't help. Frustrating she didn't just answer his questions directly.
However, since I'm biased towards my POV (
), her not answering if the sink was next to screen door or where the back entry comes out, suggests that she was saying it didn't.
Bridget Prelim
Q. Did you go in the house before you completed the washing the windows for anything else besides the dipper?
A. No Sir.
Q. For that you only went to the sink?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where is the sink, right opposite the screen door?
A. It is the left side of the kitchen, next to the back yard.
Q. That is where the back entry comes out?
A. It is way in the back part of the kitchen.
However, since I'm biased towards my POV (

Bridget Prelim
Q. Did you go in the house before you completed the washing the windows for anything else besides the dipper?
A. No Sir.
Q. For that you only went to the sink?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where is the sink, right opposite the screen door?
A. It is the left side of the kitchen, next to the back yard.
Q. That is where the back entry comes out?
A. It is way in the back part of the kitchen.
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Re: Original Floorplan
Part of the confusion, the sink room entry is in the hall, and would be easier for the ice man to step in and access the ice box (refrigerator), but the sink itself is technically against the NE wall of the kitchen, although not clear whether it can be accessed from the kitchen pantry.
The plans seem to indicate a narrow passage way which would give a FAST way to keep an eye on the backyard, and side entrance via the sink room window, and NE kitchen window.
I think the narrow passageway from the pantry to the sink room could hold some significance because of the two windows.
Even if the sink room wasn’t being used for water, there may be something there.
I’m thinking the sink room wasn’t being used if a new sink was in the kitchen where Alice Russell and Emma could both see Lizzie.
I wonder if there’s a reason why Bridget got confused on SE, and NE. Was she avoiding the question, or was she actually confused?
If the sink room in the side hall WAS being used Aug 4th, does that offer any clues that may be verifiable, or help draw closer to any of the morning events?
Is it a subject to be forgotten, or is it even possible to get any more clarity?
The plans seem to indicate a narrow passage way which would give a FAST way to keep an eye on the backyard, and side entrance via the sink room window, and NE kitchen window.
I think the narrow passageway from the pantry to the sink room could hold some significance because of the two windows.
Even if the sink room wasn’t being used for water, there may be something there.
I’m thinking the sink room wasn’t being used if a new sink was in the kitchen where Alice Russell and Emma could both see Lizzie.
I wonder if there’s a reason why Bridget got confused on SE, and NE. Was she avoiding the question, or was she actually confused?
If the sink room in the side hall WAS being used Aug 4th, does that offer any clues that may be verifiable, or help draw closer to any of the morning events?
Is it a subject to be forgotten, or is it even possible to get any more clarity?
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Re: Original Floorplan
Whether the sink was in the SE corner of the kitchen or in the "sink room" by the side screen door, AJB's killer could have used either to cleanup. Both also afforded quick access to the cellar, upstairs or outside. So again, not a huge difference where it was located. With the kitchen having windows looking into back yard, not sure what additional advantage accessing windows in the sink room or pantry would afford someone up to no good.
Back to the kitchen sink....Andrew 'grew up' a carpenter. So he wasn't a book nerd. He would have been aware that to add running water to the kitchen (vs. sink room) would be extremely easy and low cost since the cellar sink was directly below the kitchen.
But back to your point, perhaps it is not relevant to solving what happened in that house that day.
Back to the kitchen sink....Andrew 'grew up' a carpenter. So he wasn't a book nerd. He would have been aware that to add running water to the kitchen (vs. sink room) would be extremely easy and low cost since the cellar sink was directly below the kitchen.
But back to your point, perhaps it is not relevant to solving what happened in that house that day.
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Re: Original Floorplan
Cool, I do see some advantages if the window in the sink room was accessible from the kitchen pantry passageway.
The attacker could keep an eye on the entire North side of the property including the side entrance without being seen, especially if the hall door was shut, then a couple steps to look out the rear kitchen window.
I’ll bet the entire side of the barn would also be visible from the sink room window as well.
The attacker wouldn’t have to be seen in the side doorway either.
Also if the sink room wasn’t being used, it would be a secure hiding place.
Lizzie possibly lets him out, and calls up to Bridget. Maybe he even used the sink room for a quick cleaning.
Just some of my thoughts on the matter.
The attacker could keep an eye on the entire North side of the property including the side entrance without being seen, especially if the hall door was shut, then a couple steps to look out the rear kitchen window.
I’ll bet the entire side of the barn would also be visible from the sink room window as well.
The attacker wouldn’t have to be seen in the side doorway either.
Also if the sink room wasn’t being used, it would be a secure hiding place.
Lizzie possibly lets him out, and calls up to Bridget. Maybe he even used the sink room for a quick cleaning.
Just some of my thoughts on the matter.