Who Was Where? Views on The Day

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:37 pm

We had a thread going somewhere about who could see what from where they were positioned on the morning of the murders. I still cannot recall the name of that man who was sitting under a tree across the street by the Boston Dispatch depot admiring a good-looking horse attached to that carriage in front of Borden's. But I took a basket and had a go at finding the sitting angle he might have had, using several maps of the street and what was where in 1892. This would be about it in the photo below- imagine the tree in front and the gate and fence. He would not have had much of a view of the driveway or side of the house.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:42 pm

Tommy Bowles washing a carriage in the "el" of Mrs. Burt's backyard earlier that morning. Imagine the Churchill house on the right side of the photo, and move the Borden barn UP to the right about 10 feet in your mind- also imagine the well house in front of the barn and a huge leafy shrub. So Tommy had about zero view of the Borden driveway from his early vantage point that morning.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:43 pm

About what Mrs. Kelly's perspective of Andrew coming round the northwest corner might have been

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:28 am

Do you want Mark Chase?
I get him confused with Charles Gardner. Hoffman has Chase.

Thank you for the photos!
At the inquest, Mrs. Dr. Kelley says she saw Andrew when she was closer to his house than hers:
209
Q. Had you got by his house?
A. Not when I saw him first.
Q. Where were you when you saw him first?
A. About at the corner, nearest my own house.
Q. At the corner of his house nearest your house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is that the corner that the front door is on?
A. Yes Sir.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:47 am

Hmm- then I need to walk north about three feet more to get it absolutely correct. The lower right hand corner is the corner of the Kelly lot.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:43 am

Thanks for the photos, Shelley, the concept of visual perspectives is excellent! I wouldn't worry about three feet! You represented the photo as an approximation of Mrs. Kelley's approximation, and that's close enough.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:26 pm

Mrs. Dr. Kelley was about at where that sidewalk is showing on the south side of the Borden house. As soon as she saw him she was almost to his front door where she could reach out and touch him. Why they asked her that, I don't know. But he did not see her or acknowledge her so that was some kind of big deal- because they asked her about it a few times.
She would have been right at the corner of his house when he appeared from around the other corner. That would also give us a good perspective of what she could see of him rounding the corner of his house...because it has been speculated that he first went to the side door. But we may find, from the new view, that she could not tell whether he had come from there.
It's a very good project- thanks for offering to take another photo, Shell, and for thinking of it in the first place!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:29 pm

So is your mind at rest on Mark Chase?
Would you like any segment of his testimony?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:34 pm

Yooper, Rebello (pg. 45) has it as 23' between the fence at Dr. Kelley's house side yard (where that property line is that Shelley pointed out) and the side of the Borden house. That is a big difference.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:03 pm

What is visually different in a big way is the new, present addition of that sidewalk running up against the south side of the Borden house today. That strip of dead grass visible on the right hand side of the photo is the Borden side yard and the Kelly fence is right on the property line. I have, in my mind placed Mrs. Kelly walking somewhere alongside of that strip of grass with a very nice clear view of Andrew coming around the corner after going through his gate back out onto Second Street. Since he came home by way of Spring Street, and when Mrs. Kelly sees him he is clearly backtracking- I , at least in my own mind, never had the slightest doubt he had been to the side door. There was no other reason I can see for his movements to the front door after he had already passed it once coming home headed north from Spring.

Yes, I am now clear on Mr. Chace (Chase). And yes, I think sight lines are critical in this case and in pinpointing the accuracy of what people claimed they saw, could have seen, and could NOT have seen.

I am not sure how Andrew felt about the Irish, but it is just possible he did not hold Dr. and Mrs. Kelly in very high esteem, or else he may have spoken to her. Yes- that bit is odd.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:20 am

I don't know how he felt about the Kelleys either, but here is some of her testimony that they had no animosity.

Inquest
Mrs. Dr. Kelley
211
Q. Where were you when he got upon the door step?
A. Just about opposite the steps on the sidewalk.
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were you personally acquainted with him?
A. I always spoke to him.
Q. That morning, he did not speak to you, nor you to him?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you look to see what he did at the door?
A. Yes Sir. I looked up to speak to him, and he did not see me.
Q. He was back to you then, was he?
A. Yes Sir; I thought he was trying to open the door.
______

Trial
Mrs. Dr. Kelly [spelling at trial]
213
Q. And in going down the hill of course you had to pass Mr. Borden's house?
A. Yes.

Q. Did you know Mr. Borden?
A. Yes.

Q. Knew him to speak to as well as by sight? Did you see him that morning?
A. Yes, sir.
.....

214
Q. And about where were you when you saw Mr. Borden passing around from the side of the house to the front door?
A. I was near his gate.

Q. Which gate do you refer to?
A. The front gate leading to the front door.

Q. But then you could almost put your hand on him, could you?
A. Well, he was inside the fence.

Q. You were one side of the fence and he the other?
A. Yes.

Q. And you think he didn't see you?
A. I don't think so.

Q. He knew you well?
A. Well, I spoke to him when I met him, that is all.

Q. And he spoke to you when he met you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. There was no sort of variance or difficulty between you?

Page 215

A. Oh, no.

Q. A pleasant acquaintance, and you can't conceive of any reason why he didn't speak to you only he didn't see you?
A. No, sir.

Q. Was he reading anything as he passed along?
A. No. I think he had his eyes cast down, but he was not reading.