Andrew's strange request

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:42 pm

Here's another one of those little things in the Borden case that has me curious. It appeared in several newspapers around August 10, 1892:

"Did He Have a Presentiment.

Did Andrew J. Borden, after living almost to the period allotted to man, have a presentiment that he would suddenly be taken ill or meet death? The remark he made to his daughter Emma just before she left home to go to Fairhaven indicates that he had something on his mind, for he was never known to make a statement before like it.
Notwithstanding the numerous times they have been away from home, he said:
"Emma, if I should want you immediately while you are away, where shall I find you?" His inquiry had a pronounced effect on his daughter, and she inquired why he asked the question. He remarked: "Nothing in particular, only I feel that I would like to know in case anything should happen." Emma gave him the required information, and he apparently felt much better because of it. This is a peculiar fact in view of the terrible
tragedy."

The papers do not mention a source. Just some newspaper filler? Part of the Legend? Or perhaps true? Mmmmm, sounds like a poll question.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:46 pm

If it's true, the reporter may simply be reading too much into it. It's not really uncommon when a family member or friend is going away that they are asked how they might be contacted in case anything important comes up. And in most cases the need never arises and no one thinks anything of it.

A question, too, is who would be the source of this story? I doubt Emma was talking to reporters and Andrew was dead, so it had to have been told second-hand if it was told at all. That could have come from somebody connected with the Brownell/Delano house in Fairhaven, or it might have come out of the Borden house through somebody like Mrs. Churchill, Mrs. Bowen, Alice Russell, etc.

In any event, it couldn't have been considered very imprtant by the police, if it was never mentioned or asked about in witness statements or other official court-related documents.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:34 am

I, too, was thinking it possibly came from the Brownells or Delanos.
Maybe Emma said something as she was preparing to leave. It sounds dramatic enough to have been said while she was in a tizzy of packing.
She may have felt she was *at fault* for leaving Fall River.

Harry posted a Swansea link and there was a related site to the Fairhaven 1860 census, transcribed. I was just looking at Delano and Brownell there!

http://www.marketrends.net/mthome/censu ... ensus.html

william · Post by **william** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:03 am

If true, I don't think that was unusual behavior on Andrew's part.

Older people tend to be overly cautious and have a tendency to expect the worst.

I should know.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:16 am

Thanks, Harry. This brought to my mind that story of the Bordens "not talking", when they were angry with one another, instead of arguing, the girls would just shun Andrew and Abby. Do you suppose that if there is any truth to the story that this may have been one of those times that Emma was "not talking" to Andrew for whatever reason? That she may have given the bare bones info to him that she was going to Fairhaven and left it at that?

I don't find it strange that he asked at all, it sounds like something any parent would ask their child when they are leaving home, no matter what the age.

If true, I'm curious as to who the source was, I guess Emma could have said something when she received that telegram requesting her to come home?

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:20 pm

Now that my parents are over 70, I try to remember to always give them the number where we'll be staying when we're on vacation. I'm sure I'm hardly alone in this.

Another logical thread to pursue: Did Andrew think Lizzie was going to do something to Abby?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:07 am

Mrs. Brigham, Lizzie's close friend, had this to say of Andrew's concerns for his daughters. Page 136+ of the Sourcebook. It appeared in the Fall River Herald on August 14 (?):

"... It has been said that Mr. Borden was angry with and did not speak to Lizzie upon her return from Europe. That, too is a falsehood, distorted out of facts that were as contrary to the statements as could be. On the night Lizzie arrived the family had given her up and Mr. and Mrs. Borden had gone to bed. Lizzie was very tired and only spoke a few words to Emma that night and retired. The next morning Mr. Borden found her steamer chair in the hall and bounded up stairs three at a time to see and greet her, and Lizzie told me her hand ached all day he pressed it so hard. Going down town he met a man who said to him: 'Well, I would guess that some one had come home judging from your bright face this morning.'
"'Mr. Borden was, as they say, not a demonstrative man, but he loved his
daughters and showed it at such times when they came back after being away. He did not like them to be away from home. I could give you very many illustrations ot this, showing Lizzie's kind consideration tor her father and he for her. ..."

I don't doubt that Andrew, in his own way, cared for his daughters.

Somehow though, I can't see Andrew bounding up the front stairs three at a time.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:28 pm

Mrs. Brigham sounds like she was there!
I wish she had given the "many illustrations" of the regard between father and daughter.

I think Mrs. Brigham had a tendency to embelish her stories of Lizzie- giving sentimental accounts, after the fact.
At least she was loyal through the trial.
Didn't she drop Lizzie after a while?
She was losing her own friends, I think, on account of her championship of Lizzie?

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:10 am

I always thought that was Lizzie's sentimental embellishments to her friends.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:45 am

Thanks for that, Harry. If Mrs. Brigham only heard this tale from Lizzie's lips, who knows how much of it is heresay? I don't recall there being a story that Andrew was mad with Lizzie upon her return, though I have to wonder if this didn't have something to do with that story about Lizzie running out of money in Europe and asking for more? Does anyone have the source for that? Newspaper? Author? Maybe that is why he was angry with Lizzie?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:34 pm

Great minds, etc., again Susan. Was looking for that very thing this morning.

I found this in a NY Times, Oct 11, 1892 article. I believe it was published along (or part?) of the Trickey-McHenry article as reprinted from the Oct. 10, 1892 Boston Globe:

"While traveling in Europe she overdrew her letter of credit, and a man prominent in business circles honored the draft. When her father’s attention was called to the matter he commented very severely and harshly on his daughter’s extravagance. "

I seem to recall another version as well, that Andrew refused to send funds and that Emma had to raise the money to send to her. Can't remember the source of that doozie.

My favorite are these lines from Annette Baker's poem "The Ballad of Lizzie Borden" in the LB Virtual Library archives at:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Write ... oetryD.htm

"She sailed to Europe - that we know
And overspent her budget, so
The girl wired home for extra cash...
Her father wired back, "Balderdash!"
She had to borrow from a friend,
Which set her thinking how to send
Old Andrew up to Heaven's throne
And get his fortune for her own. "

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:37 pm

William's, Casebook:
A different view of Lizzie in Europe.
Pg. 130

"New York Recorder Interview

September 20, 1892

IN A NEW LIGHT"

"They have also tried to urge as a motive that she was kept on a mere pittance, had no spending money nor even enough for necessities, and that she was hard pressed to pay her pew rent sometimes. The fact is that both Emma and Lizzie Borden had more money than they knew how to spend. Their bank books show that they not only had $2500 in cash each, the proceeds of the sale of the old Borden homestead to their father, but Lizzie had mill and other stocks in her own name. The average dividends on mill stocks in Fall River for the past five years was over 8 per cent. Lizzie did not dress poorly. She had handsome cloth gowns and silk dresses and a fine seal sacque. She had just such an outfit as any young woman in her position had who did not try to keep ahead of the fashions. Everything she wore was of fine material. She took trips whenever she pleased. Her father, a few years ago, on the return of his namesake's family from Europe, expressed his regret that he hadn't known of it in time, as the girls wanted to go to Europe and he would have been glad to send them with the Bordens.
When Miss Borden did go two years ago she did not have to sell property to secure funds.
In arranging entertainments in the church or for charitable purposes, if there was any especial expense to be borne, it was always assumed by Lizzie Borden. If there was any discrepancy in footing up the results, it was she who made it up. When she bought anything the order was always for the best material and accompanied by the injunction not to spare any cost. She was not extravagant, however.
That she had plenty of money and to spare is shown by the addition she had been making regularly every month to her bank account. It is evident that lack of money could never have supplied a motive in this case."

--This is after Lizzie's jailhouse Interview.

--I had just read that NYTimes item last week and that was the one I was thinking of, Lizzie's proported overdarft in Europe- good find.

--I was thinking also it might have been in a Pearson story- I checked chapters 'Legends of Lizzie" and "The End of the Borden Case:The Final Word."
These are the two things I was reading last week- I thought it might be in there, but no.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:50 pm

Tina-Kate @ Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:10 am wrote:I always thought that was Lizzie's sentimental embellishments to her friends.

Casebook, Williams
Interviews and Letters...

Mrs. Florence Brigham, Curator of Fall River Historical Society: her mother-in-law, Mary Brigham, was a character witness for Lizzie at her trial in 1893. (Interview, July 6, 1979)

Pg. 262

"Attitude of Fall River residents?

'I think that while Lizzie was in jail people didn't want her to get the death sentence. But after she was acquitted she was ostracized. My mother-in-law, Mary Brigham, who testified that she had always been a good person who worked in the church, had to give up going to see her because her friends were starting to leave her alone.'"

--I was thinking of Mrs. Brigham's overall words about Lizzie in her "Interviews" then and later.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:23 pm

Thanks, Kat and Harry. I was trying to find what a round-trip ticket would have cost Lizzie for the transAtlantic cruise, and couldn't, I would imagine even in her day that it was quite pricey? I just wanted to get an idea of what the whole trip would have cost her, between hotels, meals and her voyage. I'm wondering if there may have been a grain of truth to that story, Lizzie may have supplied the whole trip with her own cash, but, may have run out and then turned to Andrew for support. Despite having their own money, didn't Andrew still give them both an allowance of $200 dollars to live on a year, or, is that an author's invention? Would she have been able to get money from her own bank account or write a check to cover her further costs while in Europe? They didn't have Travelers checks back then, did they?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:06 pm

Rebello, pages 17 & 19, has the following on the ship rates in 1890:

"Advertisement, Boston Daily Globe, October 30, 1890

"Low Rates to Europe, Red Star Line, direct steamship ... 2nd cabin passage from Boston, splendid accommodations, $35.00; 1st cabin, $45 and up; steamers sail every Wednesday. ..."

"Cunard Line - Steamers leave every Saturday for Liverpool via Queenstown ...Cabin passage, $60, $80, $100 ..."

It doesn't mention whether these are round trip rates but I assume so. If you multiply those rates by 20 to adjust for inflation you get a rate of anywhere from $700 to $2000.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 pm

Thanks, Harry, that sounds about right when compared with today's prices. That trip to Europe must have cost a pretty penny, even sharing rooms in the hotels with the other girls. Could Lizzie or would Lizzie expend all of this money herself? Could it have been a gift from Andrew that didn't quite cover everything?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:11 pm

I used to read in fiction that rich people traveled to Europe on what they called a "Line of Credit."
That's like a letter from your bank which says you are good for the money. Lizzie may have carried that in case she went over budget.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:58 am

Do you remember what year these stories took place in? I looked up Line of Credit in the 1890s and found this from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston:

Nineteenth century Americans had more than their share of financial pressures, and they weren’t opposed to borrowing. It’s just that they rarely went into debt for things that were fun or frivolous. As Lendol Calder notes in Financing the American Dream, “Borrowing money was acceptable and safe only when used to purchase things that increased in value or had productive uses . . . better fences, better barns, better homes,
and more land for the farmer.”

Through much of the 19th century, borrowing to acquire luxuries and nonessentials was generally seen as imprudent, even immoral. Only the wealthy used credit to finance consumption of things that weren’t absolutely essential to daily living: fine china, crystal, expensive furniture, fancy clothes, lavish parties. Social pressures and the lack of willing lenders kept most others from doing the same. Using credit to buy seed for planting was one thing; going into debt for a pair of expensive dress shoes was quite another.

By the end of the 19th century, the United States was well on its way to becoming one of the world’s leading industrial economies. Large-scale factory production and falling transportation costs had brought an astonishing variety of new products onto the market, and those products appealed increasingly to consumers who worked at jobs that were beginning to provide them with enough income to afford more than the bare necessities.

But many of the new products — bicycles, sewing machines, kitchen stoves — carried high price tags, and credit wasn’t readily available. If working-class and middle-income Americans wanted to borrow money for a special purchase — or to cover an emergency expense — they had two main options other than the aforementioned family members and local retailers: (1) pawnshops and (2) loan sharks.

The late 1800s were also a time when commerce and credit became less personal than they had been earlier in the century. Large retailers and companies such as Singer Sewing Machine rarely had personal connections to their customers — hadn’t grown up with them or belonged to the same organizations; didn’t know whether or not they came from a family that always repaid its debts; and often didn’t even live in the same community.

From this site:

http://www.bos.frb.org/genpubs/ledger/l ... istory.htm

So, I guess if Lizzie was considered wealthy enough, she may have had a line of credit from her bank. But, I would think even that would have to have had Andrew's stamp of approval for it to go to a young, unmarried woman such as Lizzie who was living at home.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:41 pm

Thanks for the info.

" or to cover an emergency expense "

The kind of credit I mean is not borrowing from the bank more than one has, but essentially carrying a letter signed by one's bank manager which says so-and-so has this amount of money and you will be paid. It probably would be backed by her father- that's likely. We don't know how much money Lizzie had in 1890. But she was 30 years old and I think had had an account for a while.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:56 pm

Harry found a letter in The Knowlton Papers which mentions such a thing as a "letter of credit:"

HK214
New York, Sunday, June 11, 1893
Hotel Brunswick Co.
"...I went home & wrote her Lizzie a letter, & told her what Mrs. B had asked me to say, that if she would go away how much Mrs. B would contribute towards her letter of credit to travel. I told her I hoped she would consider the matter well, & decide to go- ..."

--The letter was signed "A Friend", but she says she is related to Lizzie by marriage. It might even be Priscilla Fish?

[EDIT HERE: The letter says she is married to a Borden and if he knew she was writing it could lead to a separation. She says she has money in her own right, tho- so no Fish, unless, if true, she is hiding her relationship by misdirection.]

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:38 pm

You're welcome, Kat. So, do you think that it is possible that Lizzie didn't wire Andrew to send money, but to extend her line of credit/. I could easily see him getting angry about that and telling Lizzie no, especially with his love of frugality. Odd that Abby contributed to Lizzie's trip if there is truth to the story, maybe to buy her some peace and quiet with Lizzie gone?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:20 pm

Harry found an unknown citation to the question of the other source we thought we recalled as to this subject matter- Lizzie stranded in Europe.
I hope he posts it- but it's unattributed.

The gist of this annon. letter is that Abby was instrumental in getting Lizzie on this trip to get some peace.
It seems possible- as possible as them sending Emma away when they were sort of newly wed, to get some peace as well!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:00 pm

Harry found this and told me about it:

June 5th, 1893
Unknown newspaper from the Charlie Crowell Collection:

"Andrew Borden was 70 years of age and his second wife was three years younger. He was wealthy but very "close." This fact was shown at the inquest. For instance, on one occasion Lizzie went to Europe, and having spent all her money she wrote for enough to get home. This he refused to send, and the girl had to wait until her sister Emma had scraped and borrowed enough to pay her passage to Boston. Numerous other instances of a like character could be cited, but they hardly form a motive for murder."

--Of course there is no testimony at the inquest as to this incident, unless it is in Bridget's missing section, which I don't know why it would be. Did Bridget work there when Lizzie went to Europe?
--I guess she did. I just checked my timeline. I hadn't thought about that before. Bridget came there Nov/Dec 1889.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:18 am

Thanks, Kat and Harry. I wonder who the source was for this story? It puts Andrew in a bad light and Emma in a good one. And, it certainly doesn't jibe with Lizzie's story about her return home where Andrew bound up the front steps and was pressing her hand all day. A father who can't stand to have his daughters away and is overcome on their arrival home wouldn't send money so that one of them could come home? Which is the tall tale here, Lizzie's story or the newspapers?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:45 pm

I can't think a father would strand his youngest daughter even one day in Europe.
I can imagine a "Wait till you get home young lady!" But not withholding support in front of her friends.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:25 pm

Yes, I agree, not even to teach Lizzie a lesson, I don't think Andrew could have ever been that hardhearted. But, if Emma did have to pay for Lizzie's return voyage, I would imagine she must have had some money in the bank and didn't have to scrimp and borrow to get it? There seems to have been nothing said to Anna Borden about it on the return trip home, just that Lizzie had a happy summer and was returning to an unhappy home.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Maybe we have a Victorian Hansel and Gretel going on here--minus the Hansel: instead of abandoning Lizzie in Europe without means of return. (Until sister Emma provided the trail of breadcrumbs.) If the Ma and Pa were indifferent about her passage home, it would provide pretty strong motive. Lizzie's story could be early plotting or be a cover up for the shame of her father's coldness. Altogether, an interesting story any way you look at it. Wish there was some way of knowing if it's true.

--Lyddie

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Andrew's strange request

Andrew's strange request

Hmmm!