Ted Kennedy

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:41 am

Tho I have never been a big Ted Kennedy admirer, I was sorry to hear about his brain tumor. I saw some video of him walking out of the hospital to get in his car, and he had on a polo shirt which was tucked into his slacks. I didn't see the big gut on him like he's always shown when someone takes his picture with no warning.

This morning on the car radio, they were talking about him. They brought up Chappaquiddick, which at this point right now I thought was in bad taste. I know what he did and what he didn't do (most of it).

I did hear something a little puzzling about the incident. They said that Mary Jo Kopekne (sp?)'s parents did not have her body autopsied. Under the circumstances in which she died - not under a doctor's care, a sudden death, (and a suspicious one) Massachusetts didn't have a law back then (1967) stating any person dying like that had to have an autopsy?

I can certainly understand the parents not wanting that for their daughter. My deceased brother had to have one, and I can't stand to think of it to this day. I would have done almost anything to have prevented it.

A book on the subject I read like 15 years ago said that when the car went into the water, she was alive and had an air pocket to breathe in - until the air pocket was gone. They figured Ted K could have saved her had he not spent his time in other ways.

But my question is about the mandatory autopsy law - don't they have that in Massachusetts?

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Tue May 27, 2008 9:07 pm

augusta - the term autopsy appears some 11 times in a simple search of the Massachusetts General Laws from http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/mgllink.htm ... Just enter the word in the seach box there on that page. That should get you started on finding the answer. The information at http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/38-3.htm and http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/38-4.htm might be enough to settle your question, or at least begin to.

The real question though is whether the statutory language that applies today is similar or identical to that which was on the books ca. July 18-19, 1969.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed May 28, 2008 1:21 am

Teddy's 50 foot gaff schooner MYA.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed May 28, 2008 9:50 am

What a life.........

If you look carefully at the photo in the post above you can see Kennedy's home off to the right, the big one, on the distant shore.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:37 am

Thanks for the links, Doug. Of course you're right - the laws today may not have been in place back in 1969.

Thanks for posting the photos, mb! Wow - Ted's sailboat! And the Kennedy compound! Those are really great!

I didn't realize how visible the compound was from the water. They used to have a boat tour that took you out there and said you could see it. I almost took the tour, but I can't remember why I didn't. Time restriction, maybe. The tour wasn't solely for seeing that - it was like a ride around Martha's Vineyard or something, maybe whale watching. I dunno.

Watch the press be real great to Ted Kennedy now. After all the fat photos they've run on him, and all the writings of his drinking and irresponsibilities (some book said he threw rolls on a plane when he was drunk) - so many Bad Boy stories. They'll do a total turn-around now. It's sickening. They print what they think the public wants to hear. I've been hearing some very glowing reports on all he has accomplished in the Senate lately. Hail, hail to thee, oh Kennedy.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:48 am

He was at Duke on Monday the 2nd. Hadn't heard how the surerary went thou

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:08 pm

One of the JFK niece's was on tv the other day, and she said he was partly conscious during the surgery. He kept his spirits high and when he was able to see his family, she said he said something like, "Let's do that again!" (Something amusing.) I haven't heard any medical news on the operation yet. Has anyone?

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:34 pm

Well, the last I heard a few days back (a press conference I think it was) the feller who did the work said things went quite well. The objective as I understood it was to remove as much of the tumor as they could, in order to make further treatments - radiation, chemotherapy, etc. - more effective. The senator was reported to be cognizant and communicative after the procedure and was up and around walking the next day. The doctor said that Senator Kennedy should suffer no permanent neurological damage/effects as a result of the surgery the other week. As for what's next, we'll see.

Senator Kennedy did say something, like "Boy I feel like a million bucks; let's do that again tomorrow" after the surgery.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:45 pm

It seems that all three Kennedy brothers, JFK, RFK and Ted, have died, or will die, of brain related problems. One of the Kennedy sisters had brain trouble and I guess Joseph senior died from a stroke.

I have a book on the "curse of the Kennedy's." Haven't read it yet but it looks like some good reading. I don't know much about the Kennedys, just the assassination of JFK.

If Ted is fortunate it will kill him quick other wise he is in for a lot of pain and suffering before it kills him. I always believed that the Kennedys are basically good-hearted people, in spite of their quirks and major blunders.

-1bigsteve (o:

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:22 pm

It's a bit ironic, but if I remember correctly it was 40 years ago this very afternoon that Ted delivered that eulogy most of us remember: My brother need not be idealized or enlarged beyond what he was in life...

I'd have to agree there Steve. Not one of us is a paragon of perfection. One thing that's particularly striking is the degree of growth that took place in all three of the boys who survived. The seed of what they would become was in effect germinated in an air of tragedy.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:42 pm

I think the Kennedys weren't any worse than most other wealthy families. Just their soiled laundry was/is waved about all over the place.

Big Steve - The whole family is fascinating. I've always been interested in their private lives especially.

Dougoh - I think one of the very saddest moments I ever saw was Ted Kennedy's eulogy for his brother, Bobby. I cry every time I see it.

RFK and JFK - what senseless murders.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:03 pm

I just started reading a book on the the private years of Jackie Kennedy called, "Just Jackie." It starts about a week after her husband's murder and continues to her death. I have several books on the Kennedy's I haven't read yet. I'm just about to finish one called, "Murder In Dealey Plaza."

-1bigsteve (o:

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:33 pm

Sounds like an interesting book there Steve. Klein was one of the "boys on the bus" - the press contingent that covered Kennedy during the 1960 campaign. Might have to give it a looksee. I have a bunch of books on the subject myself and wish I had room for more.

I know exactly what you mean augusta. Choral versions of the Battle Hymn of the Republic bother me to this day for the same reason. It's odd the things you remember after 40 years - when you're not 43 yet!

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:15 am

Good grief Steve - I'm still working my way thru the 26 volumes of original testimony taken in 1963-'64. I wish it had been "accessible to the masses" 20 years ago... I might be done reading by now!

Ever see the stuff at http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/conte ... nts_wh.htm ?

If you're ever bored and in a massochistic frame of mind, you might enjoy it!

Speaking of... I read in the Boston Globe the other week that a Dr. James Morningstar Young passed away recently, age 78. Dr. Young was apparently serving as medical director aboard the USS Northhampton in 1963, and President Kennedy encountered him during a ship's tour. Not long after, Dr. Young was reassigned to duty as a White House staff physician.

The obit. is still up on the Globe's website.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:46 pm

Thanks for the link, Doug. I read a condensed version of the Warren Commission Report over 30 years ago and was not happy with all the distortions and white washing.

I remember President Kennedy's talks with the nation and the tension during the Cuban missile problem. Everyone felt a young President would get things done but things don't always work out. I have a book, "The Unfinished Life Of John F. Kennedy" that looks like it might make good reading.

I never cared much for Ted. I remember the news about the bridge and how he weaseled out of it. I remember RFK's shooting and the "death watch" the media put on with the cameras focused on the hospital doors waiting for the doctors to come out with the news yay or nay. I would like to learn about his family before Dallas and Los Angeles. I don't care about their rolls in the clover though.

-1bigsteve (o:

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:28 pm

Oh, I remember hearing about Ted’s accident too – a little better, more cohesively than I remember things from the Spring and Summer of ’68. Never cared much for him (just as you said) mainly on that account.

As far as his current illness goes though, it’s difficult to wish him anything but the best. The past is the past, and it’s him has to live with it. I’m just a non-judgmental feller by nature I guess, or try to be as much as possible. We’re all of us human, and each of us more than capable of making oft-times tragic errors in either thought or action. There but for the grace of God, in those same footsteps I might trod, you might say.

The book you mention, is it the one by Bob Dallek? I have the very same book here on the shelf beside me. (I was less than impressed I must admit with Kathleen Kennedy based on an incident Professor Dallek relates in that book!)

I know what you mean too about the subject matter. I still pick at things now and again concerning the assassination, but I lean much more toward contemporary things - their lives before any of that happened.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:03 pm

Well said, Doug! Sometimes I get so sick of the assassination I could scream. But a few months later I get into it again.

Robert Dallek, that's the guy. I have a couple of books about Jackie's private years since '63 that I'm getting into. Interesting woman in her own right.

You are right. We are all more than capable of making blunders and I've made a few like we all have. Fortunately I've never hurt anyone. I hope Ted doesn't suffer and just dies in his sleep without any pain. I wish the same for Susan Atkins. "He who is without sin may cast the first stone."

-1bigsteve (o:

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:45 pm

I know what you mean exactly! One issue I never questioned the late President Ford's judgement on when he spoke of his days on the Warren Commission - he described Marguerite Oswald as a bit of a kook. That one he got right for sure!

I hadn't heard anything about the Atkins woman, but it's too bad for sure. Was she the one that was outside the home the whole time? Or am I thinking of the Kasabian girl? Lessee here.... Oh, no...it's Linda Kasabian I was thinking of.

Interestingly enough I can now say that I have something in common with Senator Kennedy: At different times we've both received expert treatment from physicians who were (or are) tops in their respective areas of expertise and practiced - or taught at - the Duke University Medical Center. I had orthopaedic surgery there on my right hand and arm in early December, 1986 - went from virtually no use at all to being at least 30% capable. Digital dexterity in the right hand is a tad diminished, but at least it's there to some degree.

Here's a little piece on the feller that did my surgery in '86. I was shocked to discover that he only passed away about two and a half years ago. http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/content/short/88/6/1422?rss=1

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:55 am

From what I have read, Mrs. Oswald was a bit kooky. Lee actually turned out to be OK in spite of his upbringing. I have a very interesting book called, "The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald." He was not a bad person. He was a young guy who thought the Marxist form of Government was the way to go and, unfortunately, got used by the wrong crowd.

Susan Atkins was the one who killed Sharon Tate, stabbed her. Susan had a sad upbringing. If it hadn't been for that she probably would have turned out OK. Linda Kasabian was the one who stayed outside. She told Manson she couldn't kill anyone. Ironically it was Linda's knife that Susan borrowed to kill Sharon with after losing her own during the stabbing/struggle with one of the men. Susan's knife was found by the police half hidden between the cushions of a chair where it had been lost by Susan.

Linda Kasabian intensionally saved the life of an actor that the group had been sent out to kill by deliberately driving to the wrong apartment building. When they realized they had the wrong apartment building Susan Atkins left her "calling card" by defecating on the stairs landing. I guess that is why she was called "the animal." No class there.

I have color photos of the murder scene and they really make you aware of the agony those people must have gone through.

I've never had any surgery or major medical help myself. I lost the use of my hands years ago after using a hammer and chisel to break up stucco around my windows. I had hands like claws and couldn't close them for several weeks. My hand strength went down to a measly 136lbs. pressure in my right and just a few pounds more in my left hand and I felt as weak as a kitten. I have come a long way since then but I have a long way still to go. The nerves in my hands still flare up now and then. It's aggravating. I feel for you, Doug. I know what you are going through.

-1bigsteve (o:

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:31 pm

Steve, I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that Charles "Tex" Watson stabbed Sharon Tate, while Susan Atkins held her down. However, you are probably right since, Susan Atkins was convicted in the 1969 murder of actress Sharon Tate, who was 8 ½ months pregnant, begged for her child's life and cried out for her mother as she was being stabbed to death.

Linda Kasabian, was also the star witness for the prosecution.

All three of the female defendants have expressed remorse for their crimes, been exemplary inmates, and offered their time for charity work. Yet none have been released by the California Parole Board, even though they were young, using drugs and clearly under Manson's powerful, mind controlling methods at the time of their crimes. No doubt, these woman were brain washed by Manson, and seems to have turned their lives around. Of the entire group, I think Patricia Krenwinkel seems to be the most remorseful about her participation in the murders. In an A&E report, Patricia Krenwinkel said, "Every day I wake up, and know, that I'm a destroyer, of, the most precious thing, which is life; and living with that, is the most difficult thing of all, and I do that because that's what I deserve, is to wake up every morning and know that."

A&E Biography - Charles Manson - Part 5
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YQSwYC1_CG0&feature=related

Susan Atkins 1985 Interview Part 1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AxiaMZsfXcI

I do wish both Ted and Susan the best.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:46 pm

Steve - I've actually heard of the type of contracture you describe here but have forgotten the name for it. The easiest way to describe the effects as they were before I had the surgery done - try this: Close your right hand so as to make a fist. You're able to open the hand, but it requires extreme effort. Coordinated movement is extremely difficult if not impossible - all the time. Digital dexterity (coordinated or otherwise) might be 5-10%, if it's that much. Overall hand strength gauged at between 30-50 pounds if it was even that high. The elbow was pretty much permanently angled, roughly the same position it'd be in if you broke your arm and ended up with a sling. (The angle presently, with the arm fully extended is something betwixt 5-10 degrees or thereabouts.)

Enter Dr. Goldner and the Duke surgical team the end of '86. I was in hospital down there for three days if I remember correctly. The results? Certain tasks are still difficult - but at least I can do things I never could before. "Task performance" might be a bit slow but it's there. Digital dexterity in the right hand is diminished, but at least it's there. In terms of visuals, picture a person with arthritis or a similar condition, but without the associated pain, redness, or inflamation. Slower response, that's about it.

They didn't promise me a thing at Duke, but they did say something along the lines of "We think we can make you a little better than you were before." That they did for sure. Dr. Goldner still amazes me though. He was 68 years old when I had my surgery, and one of his associates mentioned that he still put in 12-14 hours a day making rounds and the like. If you saw the obit there, he taught his last seminar in October, 2005 two months before he passed away.

I don't know anything at all about the neurosurgical unit there, but based on my own experience with the orthopaedic folks, I don't doubt for a minute that Senator Kennedy received anything less than the best advice and care.

Mrs. Oswald? I saw an interview just a few years back with Robert Oswald - the elder brother. He said pretty much straight out that one of the reasons he himself joined the military was simply to get away from her.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:46 pm

Susan originally said she was the actual murderer of Sharon, even bragged about it, but tried to put the blame on Watson when she realized she could get her neck stretched for the killing. Watson shot the three men right off and the girls used the knives. "Helter Skelter" is a very well written book that keeps you on the edge of your seat.

Doug I can't blame Robert Oswald for wanting to get away from his mother. Bad parents can suck the life out of a person. Dr. Susan Forward wrote a good book called, "Toxic Parents." Fitting title.

You have difficulty opening your hand while I have trouble closing mine. We would make a good pair wouldn't we?

I imagine Ted Kennedy has enough (family) money to buy the best medical help he can get. I wish the rest of us were so lucky. I always wondered how that "family money" worked. Is there a huge trust fund set up to send weekly checks to the Kennedys, like an allowance? I can just see the Kennedy children getting a check every week with a note, "Here is your allowance. Remember your father worked hard for this money so spend it wisely." Geez, I think I'd want to earn my own!

Poor Jackie had to fend for herself after John died. She was worried about getting left out in the cold when Onassis died. She had to scratch for the money from what I've heard so far. She turned into a real good book editor. Found her talent I guess.

-1bigsteve (o:

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:31 pm

Steve - Not quite. The right hand actually functions pretty well normally, it's just that it takes a little extra time to do things (I'm talking a matter of one or two seconds at most) and the digital dexterity is somewhat diminished in the fingers, but that's all. It's a hundred per cent better than it was before, all the way across the board and that's a fact. You're probably right on the pairing!

The only thing I ever heard about any trusts is actually years old - Ambassador Kennedy had established $1,000,000.00 trust funds for each of the 9 children now eons ago - to allow them to be independent and such like. (The quote I'm a bit rusty on, but there was something in there about making their own way in life, and "telling me to go to hell if it came to that.") Beyond that I don't know much except that neither Jack nor Bob ever carried cash - they were notorious for that. I'm sure you've heard the same story a time or two. If I recall correctly though, whomever it was paid, they were most often reimbursed by direction of the Ambassador.

As for Ted - remember: Whatever medical coverage he has would be the same as any other member of the Congress. I've heard that it's a very good plan to say the least.

On the edge of my seat, huh? Nope, thanks. I remember seeing the original coverage of the Manson bunch on television hot off the presses nearly - the Tate-LaBianca murders happened within just about a week of my fourth birthday if I recall correctly. I've seen Bugliosi though on several different programs talking about mainly the trial itself. If ever there was a perfectly deserving candidate for the death penalty, it'd have to be Charlie Manson I'd say - along with most of those family members.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:49 pm

I stand corrected. Watson doing the stabbing while Susan held Sharon down, had to have been Susan's story after she realized her original story could have gotten her hung.

I lent my "Helter Skelter" book out several years ago to my brother-in-law's father; unfortunately he died before finishing the book. However, the book was not returned to me by the family even though my name was on the inside cover.

I learned the hard way to never lend out my favorite books to anyone! I miss not having this book to refer back to for information that I know is in there. One of these days I'll replace it.

I went on-line and found the testimony of Virginia Graham who was an inmate of Susan Atkins in 1969; Virginia clearly states that Susan told her she killed Sharon: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... ony-g.html

Steve Railsback played Charles Manson in the 1976 "Helter Skelter" TV movie, and I think it is down right eerie how much he looks like the real Charles Manson.

Clip from "Helter Skelter" (1976)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X92rldj9czs

(Click on image to enlarge.)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:40 am

ooo gross! I hope to never see his face. His and Richard Ramirez.
We have a member here who had correspondence with Manson.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:28 am

I wouldn't want to see these guys face to face, either, Kat. Both Manson and Ramirez are evil.

There is no way, on God's green earth, I would ever correspondence with Manson. This man has no remorse, nor does he take any responsibility, for his part in these murders. Correspondence with him? I don't think so.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:41 am

Sen. Edward Kennedy, preparing to "do battle" with brain cancer, spent Father's Day surrounded by family and friends at his home in Hyannis Port. Kennedy's son Rep. Patrick Kennedy said the senator will soon begin radiation and chemotherapy treatments.

New York Daily News
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_worl ... nt_-1.html

He would not say when his father would start radiation and chemotherapy, but he said he was considering a pill form of chemotherapy that would allow him to stay home for treatment. Radiation treatments would take about 15 minutes each, he said. The course of the treatment will depend largely on how his father feels, he said, adding that advances in medicine have provided more options.

Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... _son_says/

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:13 pm

Well, I don't know, Kat. I wouldn't mind meeting both Manson and Ramirez. Provided the ally is dark and no one is watching.

I know what you mean, Judy. I lent my copy of "On The Edge of The Fjord" to my niece with explicit instructions that she return it when finished reading it. I never got it back until years later when I found it in my sister's book rack while I was moving her to a new house. I helped myself to it.

I like the hardback version of "Helter Skelter" much more than the paperback. More pictures. It is a well-written book. It looks like they will be releasing Susan Atkins so she can die in her own bed. I have mixed feelings about that.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:49 pm

Susan Atkins' husband contends that it is ridiculous to continue to spend millions to keep her incarcerated at this point. After 37 years of expense, suddenly it's an economic issue. The only reason she's still alive is because California abandoned the death penalty shortly after she was convicted!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:37 am

I'm glad you got your copy of "On The Edge of The Fjord" back, Steve. I know that had to have been a joyous day for you.

Do you have the 1994, 25th Anniversary Edition (Hardcover) of Helter Skelter (W.W. Norton & Company, Inc.) or the original 1974 hardcover version? I am seriously thinking of getting the 1994, 25th Anniversary Edition (Hardcover) of Helter Skelter: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039308 ... r_asin_lnk. It is my understanding that this edition contains the original 1974 content plus the inclusion of a new 26-page "Afterword" by author Vince Bugliosi, which was written in June 1994.

The release of Susan Atkins is something that I also have very mixed feelings about.

On the one hand, I have a great deal of compassion for her, as I would for anyone who is facing the kind health issues she is faced with.

On the other hand, I have colored photos of the victims, which were taken at the crime scene. Needless to say, these photos turn my stomach, and I think the people who committed these murders should never be released from prison.

However, Susan is not the same person she was in 1969; she has changed over the past 37 years. This link will help to explain the change I see in Susan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqooUe0wC0

The request for a compassionate release has already been approved by the California Institution for Women in Corona. However, it must also be approved by the state parole board, and if the board approves her release, then a Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge would have to sign off on it. By the time her request for a compassionate release is approved by the state parole board and signed by a Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge the entire process may be in vain; she may very well end up dying in the hospital before a compassionate release can be granted. Perhaps this would be the best for all concerned - Susan would in essence have her wishes fulfilled, and the families of the victims may find a partial peace, knowing the compassionate release did not go through after all.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:25 am

I have the older 1974 release. I didn't know they had a newer one out.

I feel that Susan Atkins should stay in a prison hospital and die there but I also feel that she should get the best medical care possible. She should have been executed, this would have been more humane than rotting away in prison, but since she has been allowed to live I think it is only proper that she be treated as humanely as possible. People say that execution is "cruel and unusual punishment" but they think it's OK to let that same person rot in prison. At least in death we feel nothing; no pain, no hunger, no fear, no anxiety, no worries about the price of gas.

When Susan dies, all of her sins will be forgiven at that time. "The wages that sin pays is death." If she had been raised in a better home setting none of this would have happened. This was all preventable. Thats the sad part.

If Susan can keep her hopes up on a compassionate release, but then dies in her sleep while in prison, then maybe she will die "happy" and her victim's families will feel that some justice was served.

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:54 am

Our dad talked to Bugliosi during the Atlanta Child Murders fiasco. They were asking anyone with a decent theory to please call. He left a message and Bugliosi called back. I got to listen on the extension. The man was so moral, ethical, and dedicated and approachable.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:39 am

Susan Atkins may well be a different person than she was in 1969, maybe we all are. If she is, it's because she was allowed all those years to make a change. That's a lot more time than she allowed others to have.