I can't believe it!

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:31 am

Never thought I'd see the day. My husband actually read "A Private Disgrace" and he is getting interested in Lizzie's case. He says he's going to solve the crime.

My question is this: which book do you all recommend I give him next?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:17 pm

What ever you do, don't give him Arnold Brown's book!!!

What about the trial transcripts? I know I'm not suggesting a book, but what better place to start than with the facts?

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:42 pm

I'd go with Sullivan's Goodbye, Lizzie Borden, which is certainly excellent as a summary of the case and as preparation for reading the primary sources. Radin is certainly worth reading too, but I'd save him until your husband is well grounded in the case.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:43 pm

[Duplicate. Please delete.]

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:43 pm

Sorry, that was an accident. I'm sure you heard me the first time.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:52 am

Spiering, without a doubt Spiering. Then Arnold brown's book. Follow that with the Physic Solution.

By then he will be so misinformed and confused that he will never solve the case.

On the serious side, 3 of the most non- biased books would be

1 Goodbye Lizzie Borden, by Sullivan. Although Sullivan does mention that he believes Lizzie to be guilty he also mentions that he wrote the book in a way to try to let the readers decide for themselves.

2 The Casebook by Williams.

3 Lizzie Didn't Do It, by Masterton. The latter sounds as if its in favour of Lizzie's innocence, but for the most part its pretty evenly written.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:57 am

If he wants to solve the crime, give him Rebello. I've read that straight thru 2 times.
If he wants to be entertained and keep interest, he could try Geary. I give Geary to my friends and they admit to getting interested.

HaHa Fargo, very funny!

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:23 am

Forty Whacks by David Kent.

Casebook, Williams et al.

Rebello, Rebello, Rebello!

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:37 am

If someone is just new to the case and the changes are very high that they will not become obsessed with it, just interested, then I wouldn't recommend Rebello or the trial transcripts. Although I wouldn't discourage them either. I can imaine someone who is new to the case and only marginally interested spending an hour or two weeding through the jury selection and then halfway through the opening statement losing interest and giving up.

I would definitely recommend Geary, the graphic novel. It's excellent and really is easy reading that conveys an enormous amount of information.

And then I would say Lizzie Didn't Do It! although I think it wastes some time trying to solve the case with its own solution (something I really think spoils and stains a lot of the true crime books like Arnold Brown and Spiering), it does give an excellent overview.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:30 pm

Constantine @ Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:43 pm wrote:Sorry, that was an accident. I'm sure you heard me the first time.

This web site has been moving real slow lately. It takes about a minute for my browser to bring it up. It is real easy to hit the "submit" button twice thinking the post didn't get sent the first time or hitting the "refresh" button on our browser thinking our browser locked up. Hitting either button will send multiple copies of our message. Been there, done that.

-1bigsteve (o:

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:51 pm

AOL is like a slow death- I tried Internet Explorer and it loads much faster.

To grab their interest I would go for Angela Carter's excellent short story for atmosphere, followed up by A Private Disgrace and then the Joyce Williams Casebook. Once the Lizzie Tizzy was in full contagious status- a follow up dose of Rebello with a viewing of Elizabeth Montgomery for a chaser!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:40 pm

Richard @ Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:37 am wrote:If someone is just new to the case and the changes are very high that they will not become obsessed with it, just interested, then I wouldn't recommend Rebello or the trial transcripts. Although I wouldn't discourage them either. I can imaine someone who is new to the case and only marginally interested spending an hour or two weeding through the jury selection and then halfway through the opening statement losing interest and giving up. ...

Good point, Richard!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:53 pm

1bigsteve @ Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:30 am wrote: ... This web site has been moving real slow lately. It takes about a minute for my browser to bring it up. ...

Thanks for mentioning this Steve; I thought it was just me. Lately it takes forever, to submit a post!

Shelley @ Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:51 am wrote:AOL is like a slow death- I tried Internet Explorer and it loads much faster. ...

Firefox is also slower than molasses in January!

I'll send a PM to Stefani.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:26 pm

I sent a PM to Stefani, regarding the forum being so slow. She is aware of the problem and has already begun working on it.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:46 pm

I just received a PM from Stefani - the problem with the forum being so slow, has now been corrected!

Thank you, Stefani!!!

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:39 pm

So, Stefani was responsible for the slow web page!? Well, I say three lashes with a wet noodle!

Angel, how about asking your husband to join the forum and dig through all the files we have stashed here? I'm sure he will get a better education on this case here than from most books. It would be nice having him.

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:10 am

When you look like that, bigsteve, it sounds like you would like having him- for dinner!

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:45 pm

Kat @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:10 am wrote:When you look like that, bigsteve, it sounds like you would like having him- for dinner!

Well, I don't know Kat, does he have much meat on his bones? I'll break out my A-1 sauce...

I'll have to sweeten up my avatar a bit. I'm getting a little tired of that grump looking back at me. I have often wondered why Frankenstein's monster had a flat head. I can understand bolts in the neck for jump-starting him but a flat head? What happened, he slide head first off the gurney?

It would be nice if Angel's husband came on board. It would be better for a person to learn the facts here first rather than have to unlearn the "facts" in whatever book he reads.

-1bigsteve (o:

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:15 pm

I would love to read Rebello if one ever comes on ebay for less than $300.00 I have not given up the search, I check almost every used book store I drive by & someday I'll get it!!!! This is the first time I've heard of the author Geary. What is the name of the book?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:38 pm

Nadzieja @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:15 pm wrote:I would love to read Rebello if one ever comes on ebay for less than $300.00 I have not given up the search, I check almost every used book store I drive by & someday I'll get it!!!! This is the first time I've heard of the author Geary. What is the name of the book?

You can google Rick Geary + Lizzie Borden. There is info about him and his writings.

-1bigsteve (o:

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:34 am

My husband is not into computers, so I doubt that will happen. He's just finished Masterson and Geary.

Meat on his bones? More like muscle. He's 6'3" and weighs 245.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:39 am

Angel @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:34 am wrote:My husband is not into computers, so I doubt that will happen. He's just finished Masterson and Geary.

Meat on his bones? More like muscle. He's 6'3" and weighs 245.

Does your husband workout, Angel? I like gabbing with fellow bodybuilders. I don't blame him for not being into computers. I got into them 10 years ago and still don't feel comfortable with them. Every time mine locks up I want to reach for a hatchet. If we had them in the '50s I could have started early. Maybe one day he will join the forum and we can talk. The more members the merrier.

-1bigsteve (o:

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:30 am

He used to work out. But he is still really active. Type A personality. Always doing something.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:05 am

He sounds like my kind of person, Angel. I like people who are "go-getters," always active and getting things done. One of my relatives was kicked out of his house by his jealous step-father on the day he turned 18. He had nothing in his pockets. No job, no money, no place to sleep. Just an old car that hardly ran. I saw him go from nothing to having a wife, kids, a home of his own and a successful construction company that he started all on his own using no credit, no loans and no help from anyone. I wouldn't have believed it if I had not watched him do it all. Everything he attained he earned by hard work. I hired him to do construction work on some of my construction jobs only because he was good at what he does and not as a "hand out."

On the other hand I've seen a lot of type Z personalities, Z as in lazzzzzzzzzy! Many young people today are type Z's. So many of them live on skateboards, mooch and figure the world owes them a living. I have a relative who fits that description perfectly.

If he gets a computer Angel have him log on and check us out. He might like the forum. How did he like Geary and Masterson?

-1bigsteve (o:

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:58 am

Steve, your friend sounds great. I moved out of my mother's house the day after I turned 18. I got married at the end of that year & my husband & I have worked for everything since. At the time my friends thought we were crazy because we took as much old furniture we could get & painted it so we wouldn't have any bills. Three years later we bought a piece of land to build a house. It wasn't easy at all, it took alot of hard work, but my point is that it can be done. I've trained some 18 year olds at work, and if they're not asking for a raise in two weeks, they say they don't like the job & stay with mom & dad. I always thought I was the strange one because I wanted to be on my own so young. I look back & realize that I was actually raised that way-to be self sufficient. My question is--When did that stop?

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:47 pm

He liked Masterson- said he seemed to write clearly so he could understand things better.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:55 pm

Angel @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:47 am wrote:He liked Masterson- said he seemed to write clearly so he could understand things better.

One thing I appreciate about a writer is their careful choice of words that make the point(s) they are making completely understandable. It is very aggravating when you don't "get" what the author means. You end up reading a book with the nagging feeling that you "lost" something along the way. A lot of books on organization and self-help are like that. Good editors should keep that from happening.

I've never read Masterson's work. I'll have to get into it.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:10 pm

Nadzieja @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:58 am wrote:Steve, your friend sounds great. I moved out of my mother's house the day after I turned 18. I got married at the end of that year & my husband & I have worked for everything since. At the time my friends thought we were crazy because we took as much old furniture we could get & painted it so we wouldn't have any bills. Three years later we bought a piece of land to build a house. It wasn't easy at all, it took alot of hard work, but my point is that it can be done. I've trained some 18 year olds at work, and if they're not asking for a raise in two weeks, they say they don't like the job & stay with mom & dad. I always thought I was the strange one because I wanted to be on my own so young. I look back & realize that I was actually raised that way-to be self sufficient. My question is--When did that stop?

That is a very good question, Lorraine. I've wondered that myself. When I was a kid everyone worked. I've been working since I was 12 and became self-employed at 19. Kids now days don't seem to care about personal responsibilities. We have all seen these bumper stickers; "Skateboarding Is Not A Crime." One day I saw one that read; "Skateboarding Is Not A Life Or A Job Either!" I nearly ran off the road I was laughing so hard.

I think the schools need to start teaching money-making skills. Put aside Algebra 12 and teach young people skills they will actually need.

-1bigsteve (o:

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:07 am

I concur with the recomendations on Rebello. And yes...some of the others would be great too...except for AB. Of course the primary source documents are essential as well. LOL...he may even want to join the forum !

Tracy...

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:19 am

I have made getting a copy of Rebello's book my next project. I'm not going to pay hundreds of dollars but I keep my eye open in used book stores and antique shops. I've seen many very expensive books going for just a few dollars because the owner didn't know what they had.

I never read "Goodbye Lizzie Borden," "Forty Whacks?," and some of the others that get mentioned here. The only one I can't stomach, so far, is Arnold Brown's. The others at least have some plausibility in my opinion.

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:14 am

Hi Tracy!!!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:17 am

Hey you guys, somebody here claimed they got Rebello thru InterLibrary Loan. I thought it was a reference work which can't leave the building, but this person here said no, they got it.

You can call your Library and ask them to interlibrary loan it and sit back and wait, and if it comes, good luck reading it in 3 weeks!

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:08 am

My Library sells off its old stock of books a few books each day. I haven't found Rebello's but one day I may. I have found a lot of other cool stuff I didn't think I would ever see.

I think it's worth going to these city, community, and charity book sales that every town has and keep an eye open for Rebello's book and others were looking for. Just get there early.

-1bigsteve (o: