Hyman Lubinsky

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:42 pm

Kudos to forum member Joe from Ohio, who tramped manfully for hours in quest of the elusive ice cream vendor so beloved by Lizzie's defense. Hyman Lubinsky was found in Hebrew cemetery in the south end of town. There are several other Lubinskys including Jacob and Bessie. Hyman came from a large family of siblings. We selected a prayer rock from the urn at the front of the cemetery and placed it on Lubinsky's marker in Jewish tradition. I hope someone here can read the Hebrew. This shot I took this morning about 10 a.m. when the temps were broiling!

Good job Joe! We had a hot but exciting day finding other Lizzie-related people- and one or two surprises I need to research before publishing. Joe wanted to share this find with you all tonight. He has been at the house for 10 days and tonight is alone at the Second St house- sleeping in the Morse bedroom! Joe played Uncle Morse this past Tuesday. He's a lot of fun to go cemetery-tramping with-even in this heat!

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:59 pm

Shelley, what cemetary is that? The Jewish Cemetary on Amity St.? I can barely make out the dates on the stone but it looks like it says 1888-1928. That can't be.

That would of made him just 4 at the time of the murders.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:09 pm

Am trying to darken the numbers to see the dates.

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:12 pm

LOL.

Yes I understand that would of made him 40 at the time of his DEATH but that also would make him only 4 yrs old at the time of the Borden murders. Just a tad bit young I think even for then to be driving an ice cream wagon.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:17 pm

Steve- I have edited my response to answer your question. See photo above. He would have been 24 in 1892. Which sounds about right for selling ice cream. 1868-1928. That is a 6, not an 8.

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:23 pm

I do apologise. I thought it was 1888. I wasn't seeing 1868. Great find you guys. Is that the cemetary on Amity St. ?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:27 pm

You go all the way south down Plymouth to the Harbor Mall area, take a right at Rite Aid,, then a left- there is also a big Stop and Shop. I never checked the street although there is a sign posted saying Hebrew Cemetery and something like Marano or Marino Bishop Blvd.

.

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:40 pm

Yes, Thats the cemetary I was thinking of. I believe it's on Amity St. I would have never thought of looking there for Hyman Lubinsky. Again.....Great find guys! Kudos!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:55 pm

Great find. However, we have a problem.

According to Len Rebello's book (page 88) Hyman was born in 1876 and died in 1923. He has the exact day of death (January 23) so he must have had some source.

There has always been confusion regarding his age at the time of the crimes.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:01 pm

I am not surprised. I do a lot of work on Ancestry.com and the census pages. Frequently one finds "about" or "approximately" and ages can be 2-3 years off easily. Sometimes handwriting of the person entering the data is ghastly and numbers could be anything. I am satisfied this is the man. Often 3's and 8's look a lot alike. If the loops are not closed tightly.
And there are always issues with spellings. Lubinski is in the city directories right up to 1895 for him. He lived at 64 Spring St with his father Jacob-both listed as peddlers. Then you get Lubensky, Herman for Hyman, and other problems. Clearly he was from Russia. The word BROTHER is on his stone and it would appear he was single. Bessie and Jacob are buried right behind him. I have found some evidence for a divorced Hyman Lubinsky who pops up in directories and census for Ward 3 Fall River. This may be the same man.

Ancestry.com has printed out this entry as Herman Lubrnsky although it is pretty clear it is Hyman Lubinsky to me. You can't even trust these people to transcribe correctly.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:14 pm

Yes Harry, and Hoffman has 1874-1923, and doesn't give his source. HL was not asked at trial how old he is. Since Lubinsky says he talked to defence lawyer Phillips, I checked his article and there is no bio material there on the ice cream man.

Knowlton Papers Glossary has 1874-1923. Born in Russia, "son of Jacob & Bessie (Sinderoff) Lubinsky."

andrea · Post by **andrea** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:57 pm

Terrific find! I've always wondered about good ol' Hyman Lubinsky. Strange how seeing a gravestone can "bring someone to life"...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:59 pm

After seeing these edits in a post prior to mine, I am confused as to the final answer?
Here, when editing after a reply, it is thoughtful to show the original post and where the edit comes.

I thought Len's info showed us a divorced Lubinsky?
So is that the grave or not?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:07 pm

Yes- that is our person of interest,Hyman Lubinsky's grave. Bessie and Jacob (parents) are right behind it. That is not Len's info from the census, it is mine from Ancestry.com- I was just speculating on the divorced Lubinsky and using that as an example, saying it has been hard finding things about Lubinsky because spellings are often different or handwriting is atrocious: i.e. "Herman" "Lubinsky", "Lubrnsky" and "Lubinski", "Lubenski". I edited the post to make this point more intelligible- it sounded confusing as it originally was posted. The bottom line is YES- this is IT. Yay Joe!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:21 pm

Thanks! I did understand your reference to the divorced Lubinsky. It was that one that Len identified in his book- I thought- so the example of bringing that one into the mix confuses me because I thought that was our Lubinsky. So is Len's guy the right one or the wrong one?
And the dates don't match- right? The 1874 doesn't match the gravestone- ?

I did notice the census info was yours from Ancestry dot com.

diana · Post by **diana** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:01 pm

I’m totally confused now.

Rebello (p. 88) has Lubinsky born January 1876 and died January 23, 1923. (However, he says Lubinsky died “at the age of 49” although 1876-1923 would make him only 47.)

I also don’t know about Lubinsky being 24 at the time of the murders? Rebello (p. 88) cites a newspaper reporting his age as 18 in 1892.

The Rebello date of 1876 makes him 16 while the Knowlton Papers 1874 birth date makes him 18 at the time of the murders and 49 when he died.

I’m leaning toward the 1874 date of birth because it dovetails with the newspaper item saying he was 18 and with Harry’s valid comment that Len probably had a source for the exact date of death as January 23, 1923.

How can we be sure this particular marker is for our Hyman L.?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:29 pm

Well one big tip off is that his parents are buried right behind him. Bessie and Jacob are given in several books as his parents (Knowlton, Yesterday in Old Fall River, etc). I will call Len- but he would be the first to tell you that his book is not without some errors. The revised edition will weed some of those out. Lubinsky has been a difficult one. One of the biggest glitches in the documentation biz is handwriting and one of the biggest errors is mistaking a 3 for an 8 and vice versa if handwriting is involved. I usually take a soft toothbrush with me in cemeteries because moss and lichen can mask important dates and hide portions of numbers. As you can see the stone above has growth which makes the 6 hard to read. Just passing quickly one would think it was an 8.I tend to put the least faith in the newspapers unless it is an obituary with facts given by a family member. There has been, according to Len, always some doubt about Hyman's exact age at the trial. I do think a boy of 16 or even 18 would be noted for his exceptional youth and reliability as a convincing witness. I tend to believe the 24 year old fits the bill better.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:59 pm

Since there seems to be no consensus as to Hyman Lubinsky's year of birth, perhaps this is the one we seek. The proximity to the parents' graves is certainly a large clue! It may bear further investigation, maybe the first thorough investigation done on Hyman Lubinsky. A death certificate is probably the single best document for identifying a deceased relative or person of interest. Census records are not always reliable, my great-great-grandfather shows up with a different birth year according to the age given for several decades. Not one of them is the correct birth year!

patsy · Post by **patsy** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:55 am

Great work and I say kudos to Joe too for braving the heat and finding this part of the whole story to share with us. I agree it does seem to bring Hyman to life.

From all of my experience doing family history, dates and even names seem to change frequently depending on who does the reporting and transcribing. With the parents so close it does seem this is the right Hyman.

The pictures are great. Thank you, Joe and all, for sharing.

Just a note here. Are you aware of Familysearch.org and their fairly new prototype database? You can go to their site and scroll down below the search box and click on prototype. They have quite a bit of census, birth, death, marriage information etc. that we can access for free and some with images. Not sure about how much they have for MA yet but they keep updating.

diana · Post by **diana** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:21 pm

Joe -- I hope you don't think any of us are trying to rain on your parade! It's always appreciated when members bring forth independent information, such as yours.

I suppose we tend to treat Rebello and the Knowlton Papers as Bibles of the case and any deviation from their information catches us off guard.

I wanted to be sure you know there's nothing personal in our nitpicking about your find; it's simply a re-examination of previous information butting up against a rather large stone marker.

joe1956 · Post by **joe1956** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:50 pm

First I want to thank Shelley for a wonderful last day in the Fall River area, and for sharing this discovery with everyone. Thanks Shelley for making my last vacation day a special and memorable one. You are a gem!

At first I was not sure that this was the marker of our Hyman Lubinsky, so I checked every gravestone in the Hebrew cemetery....EVERY STONE! This is the only Hyman Lubinsky in the cemetery. His parents (Bessie and Jacob) are buried behind him. Len's book made me believe at first that this was not THE Lubinsky so I went back to the Hebrew Cemetery and spent a few hours checking every stone. If Hyman is there, this must be him.

I am just fine here. No one is raining on my parade. I just love cemetery hunting and everything Lizzie. I also am pleased to help out in finding information for all of "Lizziedom". I hope this gravesite is the correct one. If not, where is he? I am already looking forward to and planning my next summer trip to the Lizzie B&B! Please keep researching Hyman Lubinsky and let's get to the bottom of this!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:40 pm

Joe, I believe you hit paydirt and this IS it. I will, however trot on over to get the death certificate when I am in FR Monday. Yes, we did have a real dream of an August "Lizzie WeeK"- nobody could have asked for more. If there were such a Disney-like theme park for the Borden case- I think we had all the major attractions between August 3- 10. Plus a full harvest moon and black cat!
I was looking at the cartoon sketch of Hyman Lubinsky this morning and he certainly is older-looking than 16- even 18. I will get our other stone photos up shortly.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:03 pm

If someone had asked me I could have told them where to look for Lubinsky's grave site.

Though I never went looking, I knew he was probably buried there.

We use to hang around there as a kids. It was one of our "Make Out Spots" and a place we went drinking.

Cemeteries were great places to go drinking as young people though the idea of "drinking" was not to swift.

I remember going to St Mary's Cemetery. Right behind it was the cemetery with the funny writing on the stones.

It would be the first place I would have looked for him.

It is actually on McMahon Street off of Amity. When I was a kid, it was known as the cemetery behind Valles Steak House.

The second place I would have gone looking for him would have been a small burial plot off of Stafford road and Newhall Street. There you will find a large cemetery. Notre Dame Cemetery. Towards the back of Nortre Dame is a Hebrew Burial Ground.

Back in those days.......The Hebrew and St Mary's Cemeteries were not easy to find. Today, especially in the past 10 years, they have built 50 to 60 houses around the Cemeteries. And Just about were Valles Steak House stood, there's a Shaw's Supermarket. Back in the 20's this area was part of the South End Dumping Grounds, an open dump.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:08 pm

Others have called earlier and plenty, and did not always get too much assistance from the local rabbis and synagogue. The protocols of a Jewish cemetery and attitudes towards privacy of the resting place, I have found, are somewhat different than say, going to Saint Patrick's where the office is bustling and card files abound with a full-time staff at the phone and behind the desk. Many even have all the info on a computer these days.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:03 pm

I'm convinced that the stone that Joe located is indeed our Hyman Lubinsky. Again, good find, Joe!

I did do a search of my newspaper article collection and was able to find this:

Unknown Paper and date. I believe it to be the Fall River Evening News dated August 8, 1892

"Saw Woman in the Yard.

Hymon Lubinsky, a native of Bobrenace, Russia, and son of Jacob Lubinsky, and who says he is 21 years old and resides at 64 Spring street, accorded the writer an interview this afternoon. ...."

That would make him born in 1871. Jeesh, how many different dates can we find?

He may very well, like Bridget, not have known how old he was.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:09 pm

64 Spring St is the address I also found for him in the street directory. I had planned to try to find it when I am in town tomorrow. Yes, the cartoon sketch of him in the newspaper appears to be a man in his early 20's. I think the year of birth is the one which varies 3-4 years, and finding that info since Lubinsky was born in Russia may be tough to pin down. So many errors in recording were made when emmigrants entered the country.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:52 pm

Well, this is short notice.

But, why don't I get my old drinking buddies together and we will dig him up and get back to you.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:55 pm

If not, we'll bring you back a bottle of Ripple

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:33 pm

Yes: Let me put down my bottle and get serious now:

The chances of there being another Hyman Lubinski living in Fall River is......well probably is, unlikely.

All The Lubinskys in fall river at the time were probably part of the same family.

In 1892 there were 4 lubinskys in fall river. Three of them were at the same address, the fourth one lived two houses away. Probably all relatives.

In 1921 Hyman was listed as a packer and living on Washington Street.

By 1926, there is no Hyman listed.

If this is "THE" HYMAN LUBINSKY........then they got the date wrong on the tombstone.

The stone says he was born in 1868, which would make him 24 during the trial. The news paper says he is 21.

How ever you look at it.........there is no Hyman Lubinsky alive in fall river by 1926

This is not Hyman or the tombstone is wrong.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:20 pm

In 1892 there is Hyman Lubinsky in the City Directory boarding with Jacob who owns the house, 64 Spring

In 1896 there is Hyman Lubinsky boarding with Jacob who owns the house at 189 Spring.

A change of house number- not a move.
But Hyman is always paired with Jacob in these 2 listings.

Here they are in the 1900 census.

Please forgive if this has already been posted- I'm a bit behind here.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:39 pm

Here is 1910 Federal Census
Hyman with Bessie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:59 pm

Shown here is a piece of the 1900 census with Hyman on Spring Street with Bessie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:06 am

1900 close up

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:11 am

I didn't find him in 1920 census, altho I eye-ball scanned over 400 listings that were similar.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:27 am

One more- I already posted the 1910 printed info from census(above)- but here is Hyman close up, on Spring St

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:14 am

I searched several different Atlases, in vain, for Bobrenace, Russia, the town cited in the newspaper article. It may have been too small to be included on any listing or map. There would be countless such villages in rural Russia. The spelling could also be totally wrong. Lubinsky, as evidenced by his Trial testimony did not speak English that well and it was left to the reporter to record what he heard.

I would strongly doubt that Czarist Russia in the 1860's and 1870's kept very good records on births. I would also guess most babies in rural villages were born at home. Being Jewish they may have had a mistrust of the government and never had his birth recorded.

All speculation of course.

It is, IMO, undoubtedly Lubinsky's grave. As MB says the odds are against 2 Hyman Lubinskys and being buried next to people with same name as his parents clinches it for me. The only open question I have is the year he was born. I doubt we will ever know that for sure.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:21 am

mbhenty @ Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:33 pm wrote:

Yes: Let me put down my bottle and get serious now:

The chances of there being another Hyman Lubinski living in Fall River is......well probably is, unlikely.

All The Lubinskys in fall river at the time were probably part of the same family.

In 1892 there were 4 lubinskys in fall river. Three of them were at the same address, the fourth one lived two houses away. Probably all relatives.

In 1921 Hyman was listed as a packer and living on Washington Street.

By 1926, there is no Hyman listed.

If this is "THE" HYMAN LUBINSKY........then they got the date wrong on the tombstone.

The stone says he was born in 1868, which would make him 24 during the trial. The news paper says he is 21.

How ever you look at it.........there is no Hyman Lubinsky alive in fall river by 1926

This is not Hyman or the tombstone is wrong.

Since just about every document associated with Hyman Lubinsky lists or implies a different year of birth, some or all of them are wrong because they can't all be right. There is a possibility that the tombstone is also wrong. There is a possibility that the tombstone is right and all the rest of the information is wrong, so it is possible that this is the Hyman Lubinsky we seek. In my opinion, the best source might be a death certificate. The source of the information given in the document is sometimes included, so there may be something more than conjecture. To conclude that either the tombstone or Hyman is wrong would be based on a possibly false premise that one of the existing documents is correct. Since none of them agree, all are questionable.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:03 am

Holy cow- what a ruckus over Hyman! Clearly the newspapers had faulty info. Even the Sage of Jones Street freely admits the birth date for Hyman is an enigma. In the end he also points out- why does it matter in the big scheme of things?

The word Brother at the base of the stone clearly implies siblings- and Joe looked at every stone and sure enough there are a few other Lubinskys scattered here and there in the perfect straight rows. I have arranged to go to the cemetery tomorrow to photograph ALL the Lubinskys in their eternal rest so we can look at the dates and relationship to Hyman.

It would seem we all have Ancestry.com accounts and are adept at cutting and pasting info found there. I hope Hyman died in Fall River and not Tiverton or some other place because I only plan to check for a death cert. in FR.

Frankly, I never put much stock in Hyman's testimony.

You are 100% on the money Harry, even with my 3 painful years of studying the Russian language, the cyrillic alphabet has symbols and sounds that would never translate identically into English and I imagine that poor newspaper guy turned green trying to make it out into something printable.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:05 pm

Shel, your comment about not putting much stock in Hyman's testimony initiated a devilish thought! If he can't be trusted to get the year of his birth correct, why should we take his testimony seriously?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:40 pm

Well, if you read Rebello pages 128 and 129 the woman Lubinsky says he sees, sounds like Ellen Eagan. Remember the Kellys had a barn in the back too. Tomorrow I thought I would mosey down to where Gardner's livery used to be on south Second St. and time out Lubinsky's trip to #92.

Lubinsky's times do not gel as to when he left the livery, when he would have gotten down to #92, and when the first police call gets recorded at Central- not enough time. I also have to wonder about the angle of his visibility from the approach he was making. I know Second Street today makes a 90 degree turn right onto Borden St, and in 1892 it went straight. Also the Kelly House did not have that ugly front addition to it- still, Lubinsky himself dithers, first 10:30, then leaving Gardner's at 11:05, etc. I think he may have seen Ellen Eagan or maybe even Mary Doolan in the Kelly yard. To have seen anyone in the Borden yard in that instant one could see anyone in the little driveway alleyway, behind the fence, in the jog from house to barn leading up to the side steps, through the shrubbery and trees and the looming house of Mrs. Churchill would take some luck and timing. Bence and Russell I believe- Lubinsky- well, feeble at best and not very likely. IMHO of ocurse. Harrington and Doherty seem to concur. They figured it was Ellen Eagan too. And I put a LOT of faith in them.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:07 pm

Yes, since there is so much interest in Hyman,

I introduce to you the Hyman Lubinsky Family.

I leave it up to you all to sort out who is who.

This should save Shelly a trip.

Keep in mind that there's another Hebrew Cemetery on Newhall Street in fall river on the south side of Notre Dame Cemetery on Stafford road. There could be other Lubinskys there.

Well, it's getting late........I'm off for a Sail.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:08 pm

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:09 pm

still more

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:09 pm

more still

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:16 pm

Well, looks like somebody has gone hunting today for Lubinskys afterall,- I still plan to come tomorrow even though you have apparently taken the shots I had planned to take for the forum in the morning. Yes, Abraham and Bess and Bella ALL show up if you take the time to look on Ancestry.com. As do Alex and Hilda, who I believe may be Hyman's siblings.
So, MB are we having a footrace to the city hall tomorrow to see who can find the death certificate first?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:33 pm

Someone mentioned or asked how seriously they thought the Lubinsky testimony was taken?

Well consider this:

We are talking about a emigrant Russian Jew. A foreigner, an emigrant and a Jew.

He can't even speak English. Is it not true that he who can not speak English is also blind. If not blind, at the very least, a liar.

How do you think these good Christian Anglo Saxon citizens viewed this fellow, subconsciously or otherwise.

Though, I feel his testimony was a great help to Lizzie, I am not so sure that his testimony was taken seriously by this dominant puritan, caucasian, Christian society.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:45 pm

That's funny Shelley>

To tell you the truth, I have Lubinsky's death certificate within arms length.

I'm afraid that it would be not much of a race. (I also have the keys to the city hall........well, maybe not)

No, seriously........I have lubinsky's death certificate in with some other paper work. This was part of some research papers I borrowed from a friend and I do not feel comfortable posting it without his permission or time to contact him since I have a Sailing engagement for 5pm.

So, yes, you have my permission to beat me to it...

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:04 pm

It may well be that Lubinsky was not taken seriously in 1892 due to his background. Regardless of his background, if close enough is good enough where time is concerned with his year of birth, maybe the same is true when it comes to the hour of the day. The possibility exists that Lubinsky didn't keep track of time well, regardless of the reason.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:45 pm

As luck would have it, old buddy Len happened to have the death certificate from his research in 1997 and was happy to share it here on the forum. Saved me 5 dollars. Hyman died of pulmonary tuberculosis Jan 23, 1923. The stone IS 1923- not 1928 upon closer inspection. The date of birth was January 1876 which yes, makes Hyman only 16 at the time of Lizzie's trial. This may be why he was not given much credit for his testimony- his youth, not his lack of English skills. The death record lists the Hebrew Cemetery as final resting place. The rest of the information given me I will verify first before I publish it anywhere.
There seems little doubt that this IS the Hyman Lubinsky we seek. Once again- good job, Joe!

joe1956 · Post by **joe1956** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:48 pm

This is such fun! Little did I know when I found this gravestone that it would start such a debate. I have enjoyed reading every word of it. Thanks Shelley and everyone for your follow-up research. Little did Hyman Lubinsky know that in 2009 many people would still be thinking about him. Can someone post his death certificate? I would love to see it. Thanks!

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Hyman Lubinsky

Hyman Lubinsky

At first I was not sure this was our Hyman Lubinsky...