The Blood in the Cellar

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:55 am

Watching "Forensic Files" 9 pm show last nite on Court TV, they were doing some blood testing on a woman's nightgown.

They said that other things will glow from Luminol, not just blood. They named "some bleaches" and "horseradish".

I thought that blood on the cellar wall was a tremendous lot, and it didn't seem to fit with Lizzie (or an accomplice) cleaning up.

Since they did laundry down there, would there be cause for the wall to have been splashed with bleach? And the rim around the ceramic bowl, too?

Did the forensics people use something else with the Luminol to rule out getting glowing from another source (bleach or horseradish)?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:00 pm

I dont think they did. I dont think their findings were very scientific. I think they were looking more for shock value.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:30 am

I have often wondered about this statement written by William Medley about the day of the murder, can anyone give me their take on what this might mean? Could this have something to do with how Lizzie cleaned up? I know it is said that Lizzie was having her monthly at the time.Could she have used this to her advantage somehow? Used some napkins most men would not want to handle believing he knew what they contained? I cant see most men in those victorian times wanting to try and confirm a matter so delicate as this.Can anyone tell me what they think?

"Had a talk with Miss Lizzie about the deaths of her parents. I asked her where she was when it happened. She said he was up stairs in the barn;
and on coming into the house, found her father all cut and bleeding on the lounge.She then called Maggie and Mrs. Churchill. She did not have any idea who could have done it. I inquired about some cloths which looked to me like small towels, they were covered with blood, and in a pail half filled with water, and in the wash cellar. She said that was all right; she told the Doctor all about that. I then asked her how long the pail and its contents had been there;and she said three or four days. I asked the Doctor about it, and he said it had all been explained to him, and it was alright.
I then had a talk with Bridget about the pail and its contents. She said she had not noticed the pail until that day, and it could not have been there two days before, or she would have seen it, and put the contents in the wash, as it was the day she had done some washing."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:49 pm

Is that from The Witness Statements?

There's a topic around here about "Lizzie's Fleas."
You might check that- it's full of Lizzie's menstrual information. I'm sure you've been reading archives- this is a good one

Actually, if someone thinks that Lizzie did it, or was ready to help someone who did, planning it around the time of her period is a brilliant maneuver on her part.
However, she was finished on Wednesday, and Bridget has miscalculated the day she does the wash.
That doesn't mean that Lizzie's cloths weren't sitting around in a bloody pail Thursday, which they were.
How do we reconcile the brilliant Lizzie with the stupid Lizzie?

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... fprivy.htm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:05 pm

Thanks for showing me how to get to the archive, I've been trying to read up on them but havent gotten through alot of them yet

...between my kids and school I'm not really big on time at the moment

. I found it very helpful. I think I believe that those towels were actually a very crucial piece of evidence that was made more or less "off limits" by the victorian mans sensitivity to such a delicate issue.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:33 pm

At the top of every page is:

Lizzie Borden Society

A free society devoted to the serious discussion of the
Borden murders of 1892,
Fall River, and Victorian America

Lizzie Borden Society Archives

Where it says "Lizzie Borden Archives" is where you click. That goes to 4 sets of archives.

Gee, you don't need to spend too much time in there- we wouldn't ever see you again! We'd have to send a search party!

Asking, in the meantime, is just as good.

And yes I think the towels were crucial- too big a coincidence if you ask me...
It also accounted for the speck of blood found on Lizzie's underskirt. Really a smart move.
But how can she think that up and then give such poor answers in her inquest testimony? Maybe someone else planned this, and Lizzie carried it out? Maybe Emma thought up details?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:02 am

Yeah - those towels in the bucket ... All Lizzie had to do back then was to tell Bowen they were hers, and he didn't question it. I don't think anyone questioned it. Is there anything anyone's run across where Knowlton or Hilliard, or anyone back then, saw or wrote that someone should have checked that bucket?

If that bucket were there for 3 or 4 days, I don't understand it. Why would Lizzie keep something like that in view of where her father would see it? And possibly other visitors? And in that heat they had, I would think it would have quite an odor.

If Bridget didn't see it before August 4th, why did someone not pursue it?

diana · Post by **diana** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:30 pm

Dr. Dolan testified at the preliminary hearing that the cloths or napkins in the pail in the cellar were taken to the marshal’s office and Dolan had examined them and was satisfied they had nothing to do with the case. (p. 188 - prelim.)

So Hilliard had the opportunity to consider them incriminating evidence -- but doesn't appear to have followed up on that.

Do you think that Bridget may have suggested the cloths weren't there on wash day because she procrastinated with that particular part of the laundry and didn't want to be seen as being remiss in her duties?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:05 pm

I dont know, I'm still leaning towards the idea that they were not as thoroughly checked out as they might have been. And back then did the regular family type doctor have the technology to tell one humans blood from another? And what kind of blood (menstrual or not) it was? What was it that made them satisfied they had nothing to do with the case? And I think some believe that the pail was sitting in the kitchen for the 3-4 days Lizzie claims the towels were in the bucket. I go by the statement it was found in the wash cellar. It mentions the slop pail being set down in the kitchen,nothing of the contents.If they were in there, I cannot believe the slop pail alone would've been left in the kitchen that long, let alone with the napkins in them.Would she have gone down cellar near the sink where she might clean up to remove them and place them in the bucket? All this is if, again ,we are to take Lizzie's word over Bridgets. Which I dont.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:56 pm

I think the implication in the Preliminary Hearing was that the State would not stipulate as to the pails contents at that time. That has meant to me that he was awaiting further information: ie: that Lizzie did then get her next period in her cycle at a time which corresponded with those original bloody cloths (give or take a day or 2 for stress).

At that time, they could only measure a blood cell under a microscope and tell if it was in a class of mammal which shared a characteristic of human- including, I think, a guina pig?
They could rule out human, but not say definetly blood was human.
So the bucket and it's contents becomes useless if Lizzie's cycle is established (ending Wednesday, August 3rd, beginning again within 28 to say31 days later in jail).

Could Lizzie think this up?

I had the impression that Bridget did not know about that bucket on Monday/Tuesday- just as she said. That it was kept in Lizzie's locked room- no Emma around- and brought down Thursday?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:59 pm

BTW: Augusta, or whomever has the new video: Which brick wall was that in the cellar where the Luminol showed blood? It wasn't in the wash room, was it? My impression was it was nearer the furnace area- the last cellar room to the southwest. I sent my tape to my aunty.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:08 pm

To the best of my recollection Kat, it was in the vicinity of the "dry well" .....

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:44 pm

What's that?
Can you describe the area more explicitly?
Is that in the front, or street side of the cellar?
I just examined the cellar for my Hatchet article and don't recall a"dry well."

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:12 am

That "dry well" reference actually came from the Discovery Channel program. (Perhaps I misheard, but I believe that's how they referred to ...the large basin in the cellar.) A vessel of some sort!! The sink, maybe?? (I found an old diagram.)

It was in the general area where the Luminol went bananas!!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:44 pm

Thanks.
I think they were using some anachronism if they described the hot water wash pan area as a dry well. I do recall them saying that and thinking they were misnaming something.
There was a well filled in on the property by the barn next to Mrs. Churchill's fence.

I don't know why anyone would put a well in the cellar?
There is no "well" reference in the cellar descriptions that I could find in testimony.

The room past the laundry room was the middle south cellar where the office is now. That is under the sitting room area.
Do you get The Hatchet?
There's a plan in there annotated by me from Kieran's plan in The Knowlton Papers.
I feel like e-mailing the production and asking for any info they "found" but didn't use!

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:52 am

I think it was in the same room that the wash basin was in.

I was expecting the "science guys" to give a conclusion to the show. But they didn't. I wonder if their tests did not give them the information that they thought they would get. But, still, to leave us all hanging there with no explanation. Just: "Look, on the ceiling - blood...." "Look, around the wash basin rim ... blood!" ... "Look at this wall! Mega blood!!!!!"

I don't believe that wall had anything to do with the Borden murders. If it was blood, someone would have had to have been murdered right against that wall. Maybe a murder occurred down there before or after 1892.

Or maybe there was some Borden murder blood on the wall and someone used bleach and washed the whole thing down.

The "science guys" really should have explained the results. It feels so unfinished.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:26 pm

I have some photos I took of the cellar during my first visit in May of 2000 , what is the rule on posting them?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:54 pm

Could it have been possible for a nail to be there, where clothing or some other such blood stained article might have been hung against the wall?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:16 pm

Anyone tape the show? Can you describe where the wall with the blood was please?
I haven't gotten my copy yet.
I shipped my dupe out already.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:16 am

I did not get many good shots in the cellar, most of them turned out in varying shades of black because my flash wouldn't work.So the ones I have that did turn out are kind of sketchy as to the details of the cellar,but I figured I would share them anyway. I have more but they are too dark to bother posting.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:47 am

Anyone tape the show? Can you describe where the wall with the blood was please?

Kat, from what I recall they just sprayed the Luminol on a section of the white washed brick in the cellar, it looked to be on the chimney. I don't think they particularly showed what room they were in. But, I think it was in the washroom. I will try and watch it again this weekend and see for sure.

Cool pics, Allen! Thanks for sharing.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:07 am

Thanks for the pics.
I just did my final article on the house cellar in the recent issue of The Hatchet.
"Cellar1" is of the heater/furnace and the brick wall just past that is the opening to the front south west cellar room where the axes and hatchets were found, correct?

I'm glad someone took a shot of the stairs coming from the interior of the house into the cellar. That is rarely shown.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:34 pm

That is correct Kat. The picture marked "cellar2" shows the doorway which leads to the room where the wash basin also pictured, and cellar door leading to the outside are located. The door leading outside is original to the house, unfortunately this is one of the pictures that did not turn out.I guess I could have paid more attention to the order in which I posted them now that I look at it.

Lee-ann · Post by **Lee-ann** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:48 pm

I just got a digital camera for my birthday...when I figure out how to work it, I will take some pictures of the basement and post them for you.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:52 pm

Digital camera's are very handy. I will look forward to seeing your pictures. Just out of curiosity I would be interested to know if you have any difficulty with your camera while photographing the cellar.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:55 pm

Wow Lee-ann that generous of you!
You might also call the Herald News and talk to Debra Allard-Bernardi (is that her name?) who loves doing the Lizzie news stories and maybe give her a picture or 2 with a big story on the renovations and re-opening?

I'd like a picture of that "duct-work" or chimney that is in the middle of the room in the attic- the front southwest room.

if Santa is willing...?

Pippi · Post by **Pippi** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:45 pm

Kat- if I remember correctly, and I believe I do, the wall that was sprayed was in the cellar was near the sitting room as the camera didn't have to pan far to look up at the glowing floorboards that they said "oooooo blood!!"

Would there be a brick wall there near the sitting room?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:48 am

Thanks for the tip!
That is now the office- the middle south cellar.

There are whitewashed brick walls all over the cellar.
I think I remember what you say, tho.
I should be getting my copy of the show from the production company soon, and then I'll know and inform everyone for sure and I'll quit asking.

Pippi · Post by **Pippi** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:02 pm

could it have been the chimney brick that was sprayed? The chimney brick would have been near the blood soaked floorboards.... well do let us know when you get the video!!

Why don't I record these things when they come on? SIGH

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:22 pm

I think I recall that every south cellar room had a fireplace or chimney or some opening to the back of one or a broken down one because it was taken apart a bit by the mason in his search. (The front, left southwest cellar "chimney.")
Anyway, that is 3 "Chimney" areas in 3 rooms- white brick.
That's why I'm confused.
I bet Lee-ann knows!

Thanks Pippi!

steves719 · Post by **steves719** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:24 pm

The wall where the "blood" was splattered all over it was supposedly right above where the box containing the handleless hatchet was kept. I have to wonder if the Bordens or previous owners might have done some butchering of animals down there? In Victorian times not all of the meat on the dinner table came from the grocer.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:41 am

The luminol was sprayed in the middle cellar on the south side of the house, which is now the office. The desk is right under the
*glowing floorboards* of the sitting room. Pippi described the correct room. The white brick was, though in that room, near the northeastern corner, seemingly about waist level. There is a doorway style opening to a chimney directly to the right of where they sprayed. I don't know why they chose that area. It's called "The Wood Cellar" in the Kieran plan in The Knowlton Papers, page 133.

The handless hatchet was found in the last southwestern cellar- the cellar on the Kelly side closest to the street, in the northeastern sector of the room by a chimney.

I think it is Fleet who misstates the room where the HH was found. He wasn't there when it was found, tho, and he's the only one who gets the info wrong, I believe.

hhtiles · Post by **hhtiles** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:26 pm

I dont think the hh was the weapon.

keim · Post by **keim** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:14 pm

I was in the basement for the B&B tour, but I was very distracted by the spooked guests to be able to get my bearings. I would love more architectural info about the basement to add to my 3D model of the house.

And even if the luminol test was done for sensationalism, I thought it was still a great theatrical moment!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:56 am

Why don't you contact Lee-ann for pictures?

Stef has lots of pictures of the cellar and I have a floorplan from The Knowlton Papers.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

The Blood in the Cellar

The Blood in the Cellar

hmm