Was Lizzie Borden a Victim of Incest?

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:17 pm

lizzie.jpg

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... of-incest/

You can watch the debate/discussion on your computer, this Thursday evening, 7-8 pm EST. Click the above for details.This Thursday, June 18, 2015, at 7 PM, you can tune in on your computer to watch a debate/discussion on this very issue on Forensic Week.

This weekly show is hosted by Tom Mauriello, an educator who teaches criminal justice and forensic sciences at the University of Maryland. He is considered a forensics and education and training expert – with a particular niche as a generalist, strategist, and public speaker.

You may remember Tom from his appearance on the Discovery Channel documentary, Lizzie Borden Had an Axe, in 2004. He appeared with Tom Lange, of OJ Simpson fame, and they forensically investigated the case using luminal and other tools. He conducted one of my all time favorite examinations using a large dollhouse, built to scale, to help show the scene of the crime with a birds-eye view of the inside and outside at the same time.

This week’s show is all about the “incest theory” as presented by Dr. Stephen Kane. He wrote a paper that was presented at the Lizzie Borden Centennial in Fall River, MA, in 1992, titled, “Lizzie Borden, Anxious Attachment and Forty Whacks: A Systemic Exploration of Incest and Parricide.” He has since expanded his theory to include new research into right brain development that he believes further argues his point that Lizzie Borden killed her parents because she was a victim of incest.

I will also be on the show arguing the opposite, or shall I say, disproving, in my way, his thesis. There will be no winners here, just a lively discussion of the Borden crime wrapped in an incest theory.

We will be video casting from the Lizzie Borden B&B Museum, thanks to the gracious Lee-Ann Wilbur.

If you miss the show, Tom posts them on his Forensic Week YouTube channel.

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Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:28 pm

I am of the opinion she was not. My argument will be primarily based on the way that Dr. Kane has started with the guilt of Lizzie and worked backwards. Crimes are not solved this way. People are often falsely accused this way. Because she did it, he reasons, she must have had a good reason. I say, if she did it, and I am not certain that she did, but if she did do the dastardly deed, she wouldn't necessarily need such a motive. People kill for money all the time.

In addition, because she was an adult woman of 32 with money in the bank, she could have left that house at any time. Her father was anything but the penny-pinching miser of Spiering and Lincoln----his two primary sources for his understanding of the case, by the way.

And the fact he cites both Speiring and Lincoln all the way through his hypothesis makes the entire argument suspect. They are the least truthful or historically accurate tellers of this tale. Both have a very negative bias against Abby and Andrew and believe Lizzie did it.

Bah!

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:20 pm

The crime was overkill, no matter which way you look at it. Could Lizzie and Emma have been victims of incest? Certainly. Could it have been a motive? Well, I think it'd be stretching it a bit but yes. Although I think they could have been victims as children/youth but something could have happened as adults to have pushed one over the edge. What was it? Don't know but I'll try to catch the program. Good luck, Stefani!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:31 pm

Even if Mr. Kane proved Lizzie was victim of incest, this would not be enough to prove that Lizzie killed her father and her stepmother.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:36 pm

Wow, Stefani, this show sounds like a 'must see'. I am looking forward to seeing it. Question for you: This show will be shown on your Mondo Lizzie Blog, or am I really out in left field?

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:52 am

You can tune in live on Thursday on your computer, see it later on the YouTube channel, or see it on my blog with a link, yes. But that would be Friday or so.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:18 am

I know we have discussed this many times before, but what do you all think? I am very interested.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:53 am

Yes:

Though most people don't believe it it is true.

It was all about wild untethered father and daughter sex.

But that is not the reason why Lizzie lost it.

It was because of the book her father Andrew was writing, called The Art of Seduction. To be published on the heels of his earlier work, Everything You Wanted to know about Sex but was afraid to ask.

But it was not his daily molestation of his children that brought on his demise.

It was John Morse's jealousy.

After Uncle John wrote his book. "A Hundred and One ways to have fun with Farm Animals, he became envious of Andrew's popularity. He couldn't take it any more. And when he discovered Abby reading Kama Sutra, well, he just lost it and killed both husband and wife.

"THE THINGS SOME PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:07 pm

40d187da3da9bd239997a8b61e47b653c798d3f1_m.gif

LMHO.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:54 pm

MB...

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:14 pm

True but I don't see anyone answering the question of WHY was it overkill? WHAT caused the overkill of both father and step-mother?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:47 pm

Stefani wrote:You can tune in live on Thursday on your computer, see it later on the YouTube channel, or see it on my blog with a link, yes. But that would be Friday or so.

Stefani, I was attempting to find out the link to the site where we can see this show on our computer.

I did a Google search and found the link to The ForensicWeek.com Webcast TV show. Here it is: http://tinyurl.com/pae65jf

Within the above web page, it states: To view the LIVE show or to see archived episodes, click on the Forensic Week Logo below!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:49 pm

Stefani wrote:I know we have discussed this many times before, but what do you all think? I am very interested.

I am very interested in seeing this show. I'm sure we will all have comments and questions after we see the show.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:00 pm

mbhenty wrote:Yes:

Though most people don't believe it it is true.

It was all about wild untethered father and daughter sex.

But that is not the reason why Lizzie lost it.

It was because of the book her father Andrew was writing, called The Art of Seduction. To be published on the heels of his earlier work, Everything You Wanted to know about Sex but was afraid to ask.

But it was not his daily molestation of his children that brought on his demise.

It was John Morse's jealousy.

After Uncle John wrote his book. "A Hundred and One ways to have fun with Farm Animals, he became envious of Andrew's popularity. He couldn't take it any more. And when he discovered Abby reading Kama Sutra, well, he just lost it and killed both husband and wife.

"THE THINGS SOME PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE

MB, you are too funny!!!

patsy · Post by **patsy** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:04 pm

I want to add some kind of serious comment but after reading the thread I'm cracking up and can't think straight. Hahaaaa

Thanks for the heads up, Stefani, and for the link, Twins. And for references to the books, MB.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:23 pm

MysteryReader wrote:True but I don't see anyone answering the question of WHY was it overkill? WHAT caused the overkill of both father and step-mother?

Many members believe that the overkill was caused by the rage or hate; among them many, if not all, think that Lizzie was the killer.

I think the overkill could have been a setting-up-stage, a false overkill. The killer wanted to create a most horrible criminal scene in order to make people think that the murderer should be certainly a man (in other words, not the two women in the house). I believe that the killer was a man, indeed.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:52 pm

Thanks, Franz.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:55 pm

You're welcome for the link, Patsy.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:43 pm

You are welcome, MysteryReader.

And what is your opinion about the overkill?

(P.S.: I think that it could have been a setting-up-stage because I think as well that the Borden murder had been a very well premeditated, very well prepared murder. Every detail had been meticulously considered.)

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:10 pm

Franz,

I'm not sure what I think now. I do think the murders were overkill and possibly, premeditated. It could have been a cover-up, to deflect suspicion. Since the murders haven't been solved, it seems to have worked. Do I think a female could have done it? She'd have to be pretty angry and/or in really good shape. My money would be on a male killer but for the WHY, I don't know. It's been awhile since I've actually read about it so I can't say one way or the other.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:33 pm

I just finished watching the show; I found it to be exciting and interesting. Stefani, you were amazing; you did a superb job - Kudos to you. I loved hearing your thoughts on the Borden murders, how you became interested in Lizzie Borden, and how you feel so comfortable in the murder house.

I found it especially interesting that you were still living in Orlando during the time Ted Bundy had his trial and conviction. Did you have an opportunity to sit in on his trial? Do have any tidbits of information about Ted Bundy?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:26 am

The video didn't start on my computer!

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:46 am

I used to be very afraid of snakes. Although I still don't like them, I am not as afraid of them.

It took me a long time to be able to kill them-- and when I did-- I hacked them mercilessly with a hoe.

Fear can bring on overkill as well as rage IMO.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:47 am

And I don't think there was incest in that house.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:46 am

Aamartin wrote:...Fear can bring on overkill as well as rage IMO.

I agree.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:51 pm

Aamartin wrote:I used to be very afraid of snakes. Although I still don't like them, I am not as afraid of them.

It took me a long time to be able to kill them-- and when I did-- I hacked them mercilessly with a hoe.
Fear can bring on overkill as well as rage IMO.

I, too, am an overkiller of snakes (forget the hoe and give me a 12 gauge) so the salient questions would be who feared Andrew? And most especially, who feared Abby?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:49 pm

Franz wrote:The video didn't start on my computer!

Well, don’t feel bad Franz, I couldn’t get it to start from the link I provided above either. So I did a quick Google search for, “The Crime of the Century - A Forensic Examination of the Accused – Lizzie Borden.” The show appeared as the very first web site listed in the results of my search. I saved the video on my desktop.

Here is the YouTube link to the video: http://tinyurl.com/nkmr43r

Hope you find it as interesting as I did.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:50 pm

I couldn't bear to watch it. It was poorly made or maybe it was something with my computer but starts and stops drove me to not listen. Oh well. We all still have our own opinions regarding the case. It'd be a boring world if we all agreed on everything!

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:54 pm

debbiediablo wrote:
Aamartin wrote:I used to be very afraid of snakes. Although I still don't like them, I am not as afraid of them.

It took me a long time to be able to kill them-- and when I did-- I hacked them mercilessly with a hoe.
Fear can bring on overkill as well as rage IMO.
I, too, am an overkiller of snakes (forget the hoe and give me a 12 gauge) so the salient questions would be who feared Andrew? And most especially, who feared Abby?

The Reaper?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:52 pm

Thank you twinsrwe, it's very kind of you. I just watched the video.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:12 pm

Aamartin wrote:
debbiediablo wrote:
Aamartin wrote:I used to be very afraid of snakes. Although I still don't like them, I am not as afraid of them.

It took me a long time to be able to kill them-- and when I did-- I hacked them mercilessly with a hoe.
Fear can bring on overkill as well as rage IMO.
I, too, am an overkiller of snakes (forget the hoe and give me a 12 gauge) so the salient questions would be who feared Andrew? And most especially, who feared Abby?
The Reaper?

The partridge in their pear tree?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:26 pm

You are very welcome, Franz.

I just re-watched this episode, and caught something that I missed last night, probably because I was interrupted a couple of times. Stefani mentions YOU, by name, and something you posted on this very thread. How cool is that? Check it out, starting at 48:56 on the program timer.

I'm looking forward to your feedback, after watching this part of the program.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:05 pm

Franz is famous!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:06 pm

Oh yes twinsrwe and Aamartin. I feel so honored. I'am afraid to meet paparazzi tomorrow morning.

(P.S.: Stefani mentioned me because she loves very much my little son.

)

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:55 pm

Hopefully the paparazzi won't find you!

I think Stefani mentioned you because you made a very valid point. Of course, we all love your little son, he is so adorable!!!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:08 am

twinsrwe wrote:Hopefully the paparazzi won't find you!

I think Stefani mentioned you because you made a very valid point. Of course, we all love your little son, he is so adorable!!!

Thank you so much!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:05 am

twinsrwe wrote:... I think Stefani mentioned you because you made a very valid point...

Yes, it's a valid point, but it's very common and simple too. Everyone could make it. I think Stefani might have very well thought of expressing the same idea in the forthcoming video interview. But I posted in-between "accidentally" that reply, so she decided to quote me instead of saying it in a simple way.

I appreciate very much her kindness and especially her correctness in her scholarship.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:22 pm

Franz wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:Hopefully the paparazzi won't find you!

I think Stefani mentioned you because you made a very valid point. Of course, we all love your little son, he is so adorable!!!
Thank you so much!

You're welcome, Franz!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:32 pm

Franz wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:... I think Stefani mentioned you because you made a very valid point...
Yes, it's a valid point, but it's very common and simple too. Everyone could make it. I think Stefani might have very well thought of expressing the same idea in the forthcoming video interview. But I then posted "accidentally" that reply, so she decided to quote me instead of saying it in a simple way.

I appreciate very much her kindness and especially her correctness in her scholarship.

I agree. Stefani’s role in this debate/discussion was to disprove Mr. Kane’s theory, and your one line post was a great ending for her to use.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:34 pm

Franz wrote:Oh yes twinsrwe and Aamartin. I feel so honored. I'am afraid to meet paparazzi tomorrow morning.

(P.S.: Stefani mentioned me because she loves very much my little son. )

How old is your most adorable Skipper? These are my grandpuppies, Kiffie and Otep, who are ten months old now.

Thundershirts.JPG

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:47 pm

They are both adorable. Kiffie and Otep are names very original. I guess Kiffie is a girl and Otep a guy, right?

Skipper is 9 years, but he looks much younger, just as his father.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:34 pm

They're both boys...littermates. Father is Bichon-Frise and mother is Lhasa Apso.

Skipper is benefiting from superior genetics, yes?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:58 pm

I didn't mean his genetic father, but his adoptive daddy.

Bronte · Post by **Bronte** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:54 pm

I had no clue that Lizzie was on Morphine for a year that means her body had became addicted to the drug..I know someone that had taken Morphine due to an illness and he was on it for about 4 months and even with his doctor tapering him off he still went thru some nasty withdrawals..I cannot imagine what it was like for Lizzie to come off of it after a year..Why on earth would she be on that kind of drug that long? I know she was given it in the beginning to help calm her but a year? Sheesh! I enjoyed this talk I just wish that the host would have let his guest go deeper into her knowledge of the case.He got on my nerves because he kept interrupting her in midsentence..Thanks for sharing the link to this on YouTube..

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:54 am

I didn't know that Lizzie was on morphine either. I had to take morphine when I had my leg and knee operated on. That stuff sure makes you feel good but rough coming off of it.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:16 am

This is from Why Kids Kill Their Parents at http://www.cbsnews.com/news/qa-why-kids-kill-parents/. The remainder of the article is of some interest but certainly not geared toward Victorian society. On the flip side, human nature does not change.

Q - What does it mean when a victim is stabbed multiple times?

A - It is often indicative of the release of very strong negative emotion. Studies in rats have demonstrated that a positive feedback loop exists between the aggression center in the brain and the release of stress hormones by the adrenal cortex. This feedback loop amplifies aggressive behavior. In essence, stress and aggression form a rapid positive feedback loop. When stress increases, aggression increases. Conversely, aggressive behavior leads to the release of stress hormones.

This mechanism may help to explain how stressors rapidly generate and exacerbate violent behavior. I have had several cases where matricide and other homicide offenders stabbed their victims multiple times. Once in this positive feedback loop, the offender continues to act out violently until his or her rage has dissipated. At this point, the offender is completely exhausted. Often offenders in this situation report later that they are stunned by what they did. It is almost as though they were on "automatic pilot" and suddenly woke up to see the violence that they had inflicted. The prosecution may suggest that, in the case of a victim who has been stabbed 30 times, the offender made 30 conscious decisions as he or she inflicted each wound. Advances in biological research suggest quite the opposite. Once the offender began the assault, his or her ability to stop, think, and conscientiously make choices was severely compromised.

The Borden murders contain many elements of an unstaged domestic homicide:
1) foreshadowing (to Miss Russell)
2) overkill (especially Abby)
3) depersonalization (Andrew)
4) undoing (Andrew)
5) the killer finds his or her own victims
6) woman are more likely to choose poison as their preferred method of killing (prussic acid)

I don't fully discount incest as a motive; aspects of Andrew's character could point in that direction but it's a stretch with what we know for sure. Andrew was an odd duck by today's standards, but we cannot properly view him through an 1890s filter. My profession has caused me to witness some extreme, bizarre and fatal behaviors in children (all suicides - rage turned inward but several that looked equally possible parricide) but never without my absolute instinctive knowledge that something was very wrong in that home...even without hard evidence to support my "knowing". The human mind likes to talk itself out of the realities we don't want to face. (Read Gavin de Becker) This was discussed by Irena and me a year or so ago: Lizzie was acquitted, in part, because to convict her would admit the opportunity for other daughters from upstanding Victorian families to randomly decide to butcher their parents in the family home some morning after late breakfast. Fall River couldn't face this is in 1893. Even today, we think we know the Face of Evil, that the serial killer or pedophile somehow looks and acts differently from "us normals". Sometimes this is fact but more often its factoid. Truth is that no one of us understands what's going on in our own mind much less the minds of others. Normal looking people can lead extremely aberrant and compartmentalized lives. Even the best of us are capable of the most heinous behaviors given the necessary triggers and circumstance.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:44 am

WOW, Debbie, what an awesome post!!!

Austin023 · Post by **Austin023** » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:15 am

Sorry to restart a nearly 8 year old thread! But this question/theory is one that has long intrigued me.

While there is of course zero contemporary sources or evidence of incest, there is one thing that I have wondered about after reading some of these posts.
Who remembers the Boston Daily Globe by journalist Henry Trickey article that famously announced that, basically, Lizzie was pregnant with her own Uncle John Morse's child. It also stated that her father had discovered this 'fact'; other damning 'facts', witnesses quoted, etc. about Lizzie being seen, saying alluding things to killing etc.... Now, I want to make clear that this "article", printed in the Globe on October 10, 1892 was/is considered Fake News and a FULL retraction was printed the following morning.

The Borden sisters, nor anyone else ever sued the Globe or made any statement regarding it. Even with such a fast retraction, which in itself seems a little too fast, maybe, though Lizzie Borden could have sued the newspaper for nearly any amount she wished.
Even in that fall less litigious age, a front-page news article accusing an unmarried woman of being pregnant with her own uncle's child via an incestuous union was definitely extremely damaging in any circumstance and would easily have won damages. There is no record of even an out of course, or behind the scenes settlement or payoff.

Link showing both fake news and its retraction, plus a synopsis:
https://crimereads.com/the-bizarre-news ... ie-borden/

I have to wonder....where there is smoke, there is fire. What if this allegation in the "bogus article' had some kind of truth to it? Not necessarily involving Uncle John Morse, but someone else in the family? Lizzie's mother died in 1863, when Lizzie was not quite 3 years old. Emma was 12 and basically acted as 'mother' to baby Lizzie until 1865, when Andrew met Abby Gray at church, courted her and married in 1866. So, there was at least a two year gap where there was no mother present. The household would have been chaotic at times, no doubt...two children, a working father now widowed. Any number of things could have happened. But, I do wonder if some part, the essence at least, of the incest story is true.....and Henry Trickey's sniffing around Fall River ran into some sort of talk about it, in a vague and unfounded way. By 1892, anything to do with the widow-bachelorhood of Mr. Borden of 1863-66 would have been over 25 years into the past. But it makes me wonder...

By the way, Henry G. Trickey, the journalist who wrote the fake Globe news article was killed in what appeared to be some kind of accident in a train yard, perhaps while trying to jump on a moving train in Hamilton, Ontario on December 3, 1892, age 24. So, no questions could be asked of him.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/193 ... -g-trickey

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:50 pm

Hi Austin! Your post compelled me to go reread the October10th article in the Globe. I skimmed it, but didn't see where the articles mention that John was the supposed party who got Lizzie pregnant. The article implied a couple times that Morse knew of the situation, but either I misread or overlooked anything specific to him being physically involved with Lizzie.

Do you know if that reference was in the October 10th edition?

Catsy101 · Post by **Catsy101** » Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:39 pm

I believe she was. I don’t think $ would be the full motivation. The thing is, she could have killed them without so much anger. That many hits shows anger. I have a theory. The sisters went on an extended vacation to New Bedford. Could one of them have become pregnant or both of them even? The 1890s had unwed mothers homes. They would keep the woman there and she would be forced to give the baby up, she would be shamed, etc. this could indeed cause the anger, the hurt, the shame, etc. I’d have to find proof and it’s possible there were never records and if there were they were under assumed names and have been destroyed. But, it makes sense. If Abby knew the anger would have been immense. If Abby turned down her husbands advances and she knew it would lead him to doing things to the girls, again that would cause explosive anger. And, if the thought of this is my baby’s father I’m murdering came into play, you would have some doubt enough maybe to just not be so crazily violent while doing it. Abby meant nothing to the girls, but dad would unfortunately because it’s your dad no matter what but a stepmom not even related to you…..