Where was Lizzie when Abby was killed?

[Occifer_Onion]

Why didn't the police question Lizzie about where she was at the time Abby was killed?
They asked her where she was when Andrew was killed and she had so many different answers, but I never
read anything about where she said she was at the time of Mrs. Borden's murder.

[Curiousmind2014]

Mmmm. I can't recall where she was too. I have to get back on this one. I think other than "someone sent a note" I can't think of anything at this moment.

[twinsrwe]

Hello Occifer_Onion, welcome to the forum.

You are correct, Lizzie was not pacifically questioned about where she was at the time Abby was killed, but according to her Inquest Testimony at about 9:00am she began ironing eight or ten of her best handkerchiefs, which puts her in the house during the time Abby was murdered until after Andrew retuned home. (Personally, I do not believe that Lizzie ever went to the barn; there was no evidence whatsoever, that she was in the barn looking for sinkers or iron and eating pears.)

Inquest Testimony of Lizzie Borden, being questioned by Mr. Knowlton, page 59 (16):

Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.
Q. Tell us again what time you came downstairs.
A. It was a little before nine, I should say. About quarter. I don't know sure.
Q. Did your father go down town?
A. He went down later.
Q. What time did he start away?
A. I don't know.
Q. What were you doing when he started away?
A. I was in the dining room, I think. Yes, I had just commenced, I think, to iron.
Q. It may seem a foolish question. How much of an ironing did you have?
A. I only had about eight or ten of my best handkerchiefs.
Q. Did you let your father out?
A. No sir, he went out himself.
Q. Did you fasten the door after him?
A. No sir.
Q. Did Maggie?
A. I don't know. When she went upstairs, she always locked the door. She had charge of the back door.
Q. Did she go out after a brush before your father went away?
A. I think so.
Q. Did you say anything to Maggie?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you say anything about washing the windows?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you speak to her?
A. I think I told her I did not want any breakfast.
Q. You do not remember of talking about washing the windows?
A. I don't remember whether I did or not. I don't remember it. Yes, I remember. Yes, I asked her to shut the parlor blinds when she got through because the sun was so hot.
Q. About what time do you think your father went downtown?
A. I don't know. It must have been about nine o'clock. I don't know what time it was.
Q. You think at that time you had begun to iron your handkerchiefs?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long a job was that?
A. I did not finish them. My flats were not hot enough.
Q. How long a job would it have been if the flats had been right?
A. If they had been hot, not more than 20 minutes, perhaps.
Q. How long did you work on the job?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. How long was your father gone?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Where were you when he returned?
A. I was down in the kitchen.
Q. What doing?
A. Reading an old magazine that had been left in the cupboard, an old Harper's magazine.
Q. Had you got through ironing?
A. No sir.
Q. Had you stopped ironing?
A. Stopped for the flats.
Q. Were you waiting for them to be hot?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was there a fire in the stove?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When your father went away, you were ironing then?
A. I had not commenced, but I was getting the little ironing board and the flannel.
Q. Are you sure you were in the kitchen when your father returned?
A. I am not sure whether I was there or in the dining room.
Q. Did you go back to your room before your father returned?
A. I think I did carry up some clean clothes.
Q. Did you stay there?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you spend any time up the front stairs before your father returned?
A. No sir.
Q. Or after he returned?
A. No sir. I did stay in my room long enough when I went up to sew a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Was that the time when your father came home?
A. He came home after I came downstairs.
Q. You were not upstairs when he came home?
A. I was not upstairs when he came home, no sir.

[Occifer_Onion]

Ok, so she was in the house alone with Abby.

[twinsrwe]

Yes, she was.

[twinsrwe]

.

[Kevin Luna]

My guess would be that she was leaning over her when she was killed, because I doubt that the first blow to the head killed her.

[NancyDrew]

Hello everyone, hope some of you remember me. I took a break from this forum for a year or two. I'm not sure why...I think I simply became 'burnt out' of discussing the case. However, I'm back now, with renewed interest!

Now...regarding the OP: am I correct in stating there is NO doubt Lizzie was in the house while Abby was being murdered? It would seem so. And Lizzie would have heard nothing? No sounds, no footsteps, nothing to indicate that her step-mother was being brutally murdered upstairs? It seems so unlikely.

[twinsrwe]

Hi Nancy, welcome back to the forum! You have been missed; I'm glad you decided to re-join us.

I agree, it just doesn't seem possible that she was in the house, and heard nothing, while Abby was being brutally murder upstairs.

[violette]

Hi Nancy!

I believe that Lizzie was in the house when the murder of Abby occurred. She actually put herself in the house around the time of the murder during questioning.

I read a thread (I can't remember which now as it's been a while) that discussed if Lizzie could have heard anything while in the house. There were different ideas and theories thrown out.

I would think that if a heavy object (Abby weighed quite a bit) were to fall to the floor on the second story of the house those below would be able to hear the noise.

[twinsrwe]

Violette, would the following thread be the one you are thinking of? http://tinyurl.com/zf76fze (Scroll down to the paragraph that has the word ‘eavesdropped‘ highlighted - once you finish reading that paragraph, then click on the link I provided on Shelley’s post.

Here is the link to several threads with the word ‘eavesdropped‘ highlighted: http://tinyurl.com/jhz47cg

[NancyDrew]

Thanks guys! Glad to be back. Now...onto the subject:
I know of two photos of dead Abby which show her 'whole' body. The first one is from behind her, and you can see the soles of her shoes...in this picture, it looks as if she is also balancing on her knees.

The other body shot I've seen is taken from the right side of her, and it is hard to tell if she is on her knees or not. I don't know if the photog repositioned her or not. (Nowadays, that would be strictly forbidden by the police, but who knows if things were a bit more slack in the 1890's.)

Assuming the first photo is accurate, it follows (at least to me) that she was already ON her knees when the death blows occurred. Either that, or she was bending way, WAY over, and when the first blow hit the back of her head, she dropped a short distance to her knees. Picturing this, however, wouldn't the killer have to also bend 'way, way over' to reach her?

In either case, her knees hitting the floor might not have made a huge sound. It's plausible, imo.

I've always found the side shot to be interesting also because her right arm appears tucked under her body. How in the world did THAT happen?

[MysteryReader]

Thanks guys! Glad to be back. Now...onto the subject:
I know of two photos of dead Abby which show her 'whole' body. The first one is from behind her, and you can see the soles of her shoes...in this picture, it looks as if she is also balancing on her knees.

I remember the picture but I don't recall it looking as if she's balancing on her knees BUT her legs do look drawn up a bit.



Assuming the first photo is accurate, it follows (at least to me) that she was already ON her knees when the death blows occurred. Either that, or she was bending way, WAY over, and when the first blow hit the back of her head, she dropped a short distance to her knees. Picturing this, however, wouldn't the killer have to also bend 'way, way over' to reach her?

Couldn't the killer have been long armed, rather than having to bend 'way, way over' to reach her?

In either case, her knees hitting the floor might not have made a huge sound. It's plausible, imo.

If memory serves me, isn't there a carpet under her? If you're right and she ended up on her knees, wouldn't it have been muffled

I've always found the side shot to be interesting also because her right arm appears tucked under her body. How in the world did THAT happen?

Could it be that she was perhaps trying to catch herself I need to see the pics again.

[Inspector]

Interesting that Lizzie, of all things asked Bridget to close the parlor blinds after washing, and why not the dining room where she was ironing?
I mentioned in another thread that the parlor window might give a great vantage point to the front hall/door area if one was standing outside and looking in.
Was it Hyman Labinski—pardon the spelling—- that stated Bridget was standing stationary at that very window?
I don’t recall if Bridget was working with a stool, or ladder, as the window seems a bit tall for one to see through without elevation.

[camgarsky4]

Hyman Lubinsky said the woman he say walking towards the back steps was not Bridget. I posted all the Bridget sightings on the other thread.

Bridget used a long pole to wash the windows.

[Inspector]

, Mrs. Chase saw Bridget 9:55 Am washing Parlor window outside.
I can’t remember who saw her stationary at the same window specifically the Parlor on the north side.
I thought it was Hyman , but may be wrong.
If Lizzie hadn’t singled out the parlor blinds being closed, which she did, or if the parlor door was already shut, then I may be chasing the wrong rabbit.

[Inspector]

I can’t think of a better vantage point from outside the house to watch who goes up, and down the front stairs all morning than the parlor window.

[camgarsky4]

The people in this picture provide dimension to how plausible it was for anyone to peer into the north side parlor window, and frankly, even the front parlor windows. I visited the house in September and could only see people if they were up close to the windows and I could look up and see their upper bodies. I'm not the tallest gent around (5'7'), but neither were Lizzie or Bridget.

Click on image to enlarge.

Screenshot 2025-03-08 122002.png

Hyman specifically said he did not see Bridget and the lady he did see was on the back (east) side of the side steps. Not near the northwest corner where the parlor is.

Below is the person who mentioned she wasn't moving when he saw her.

Trial page 645. George Pettee saw Bridget w/ window cleaning equipment at front of house around 10am.
Q. Did you at any time that morning see Bridget anywhere?
A. I did.
Q. About what time?
A. I should think around 10 o'clock.
Q. What was she doing?
A. She stood in front of the house, nearly opposite the front door.
Q. Did she appear to have anything with her, any implements of any kind?
A. Well, I saw the pail and the dipper and the brush. I thought she had been washing windows.
Q. Was she stationary when you saw her, or moving?
A. She was stationary.
Q. Talking with anyone or not?
A. No, sir.

[Inspector]

Well obviously I need to be more detailed in my posts, and learn how to post testimony properly as you do, to validate, whatever I say. I kinda jumped into the forum too fast I suppose, my apologies.
I agree those windows are a bit too high to peer into , so I need to find out if Bridget had a small stool, or ladder.
I haven’t heard one mentioned, but your point about the parlor door being shut would be the deciding factor on any importance to my thoughts.

Hey, I really appreciate your correspondence , and expertise on the case.

[Inspector]

Photo

[Inspector]

This was Mrs Churchill, sorry about the blurry screen shot.

[Inspector]

Day , August 9th of Lizzie’s inquest that got me concerned about the parlor blinds, when Lizzie would have felt the hot sun in the dining room even more, since she was ironing there.

Did you say anything to Maggie?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you say anything about washing the windows?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you speak to her?
A. I think I told her I did not want any breakfast.
Q. You do not remember of talking about washing the windows?
A. I don’t remember whether I did or not; I don’t remember it. Yes, I remember; yes, I asked her to shut the parlor blinds when she got through, because the sun was so hot.

[Inspector]

Thought I’d throw this contradiction in.
Lizzie is avoiding being seen coming from the front hall, but Bridget testified this is exactly where Lizzie did appear from.

Also Lizzie seems to say in her testimony that the only time she spent in her room was before Andrew left the house.

Q. You now say after your father went out, you did not go up stairs at all?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q. When Maggie came in there washing the windows, you did not appear from the front part of the house?
A. No sir.
Q. When your father was let in, you did not appear from up stairs?
A. No sir, I was in the kitchen.
Q. That is so?
A. Yes sir, to the best of my knowledge.
Q. After your father went out, you remained there either in the kitchen or dining room all the time?

[Inspector]

A. I went in the sitting room long enough to direct some paper wrappers.
Q. One of the three rooms?
A. Yes sir.
Q. So it would have been extremely difficult for anybody to have gone through the kitchen and dining room and front hall, without your seeing them?
A. They could have gone from the kitchen into the sitting room while I was in the dining room, if there was anybody to go.
Q. Then into the front hall?
A. Yes sir.

[Inspector]

Sorry about all these posts, but something about Lizzie, and the windows.
Q. What was the last thing you said to him?
A. I asked him if he wanted the window left that way. Then I went into the kitchen, and from there to the barn.