Lincoln

[Allen]

I was just reading some of the threads in the archive about Victoria Lincolns book. I am just wondering why everyone was so sure that Victoria Lincoln had it wrong when it came to temporal lobe epilepsy? From the research I have done I found out it can cause fugue states, loss of memory, temporary loss of identity, etc. Not saying I believe Lizzie suffered from it, or did not suffer from it, just curious as to why everyone seems to believe epilepsy more or less means "having a fit". There are can also be silent seizures, which my nephew suffers from.

I should have posted this link earlier. Sorry I will add it now.

http://www.emedicine.com/NEURO/topic365.htm

[Kat]

Andrew allowed Lizzie to go away for 19 weeks to see the world. I don't think he would have if she were ill.
Also, what about later in life? Wouldn't we have real evidence during her incarceration at her highest stress levels and during her trial and after her trial when everyone was always watching her? I just can't help thinking there would be some kind of proof of this.

[RonRico]

I was just reading some of the threads in the archive about Victoria Lincolns book. I am just wondering why everyone was so sure that Victoria Lincoln had it wrong when it came to temporal lobe epilepsy? From the research I have done I found out it can cause fugue states, loss of memory, temporary loss of identity, etc. Not saying I believe Lizzie suffered from it, or did not suffer from it, just curious as to why everyone seems to believe epilepsy more or less means "having a fit". There are can also be silent seizures, which my nephew suffers from.

It isn't whether Lizzie suffered from it or not that bothers me its diagnosing it 70 years later that does.

[Pippi]

I haven't read Lincoln's book and also believe it would be hard to diagnose now...so much has been lost to time. If however Lizzie did suffer from a seizure disorder it's quite possible to have been something that was predictable, complex partial seizures often go unnoticed as they aren't as extreme. In which case there would be no reason to change her traveling routines. It's also something that may have "gone away" later in life...seizure disorders are very odd indeed. While stress can induce them it depends on the person and then again who's to say she didn't have seizures while incarcerated...they can occur as momentary pauses, etc. Most people don't notice.

I don't buy for one minute that she had a seizure and murdered anyone...murdered someone maybe, but under/after/due to a seizure that's just too odd. I can't buy that defense.

[Allen]

If however Lizzie did suffer from a seizure disorder it's quite possible to have been something that was predictable, complex partial seizures often go unnoticed as they aren't as extreme. In which case there would be no reason to change her traveling routines. It's also something that may have "gone away" later in life...seizure disorders are very odd indeed. While stress can induce them it depends on the person and then again who's to say she didn't have seizures while incarcerated...they can occur as momentary pauses, etc. Most people don't notice.

This is what I was really getting at.Some seizures are what you called momentary pauses, blank stares, or "zoning out", for brief periods, sometimes only seconds.Though they are still capable of motor functions, or "going through the motions." Some of the seizures can go completely undetected by anyone.


"Following the aura, a temporal lobe complex partial seizure begins with a wide-eyed, motionless stare, dilated pupils, and behavioral arrest. Oral alimentary automatisms such as lip smacking, chewing, and swallowing may be noted. Manual automatisms or unilateral dystonic posturing of a limb also may be observed."

*Patients may continue their ongoing motor activity or react to their surroundings in a semipurposeful manner (ie, reactive automatisms). They can have repetitive stereotyped manual automatisms."

[Pippi]

Which is similar to what Lincoln expressed but not the specific disorder...but who's to believe in specifics of authors? It's very possible she had a disorder, I'm sure tons of people did, either way it would be kept in the closet as a family secret for sure in those days!!!

I don't think it had anything to do with the murders though...just another Borden oddity if anything at all

[Allen]

Which is similar to what Lincoln expressed but not the specific disorder...but who's to believe in specifics of authors?

Not quite sure what you meant by that, but I'm glad that you understand what I was getting at And yes it definitely would have been kept in the closet, I agree.

[Kat]

If something like this was shamefully kept in the closet by the family then I doubt Andrew would let Lizzie travel with her friends. She may have not wanted to be caught either- she would have to really trust those people.
Going away for an extended period was a unique experience back then. I still don't see it as possible even for the reasons you guys have noted- maybe especially because of those reasons.
Why didn't Emma go with her? Even Emma was pledged to take care of Lizzie.
The murders happened at a time when supposedly Lizzie was manifesting this disorder, so on the trip, being within 2 years of the murders, this would probably be evident and possibly prevelant, in this time frame.

This seizure theory is Lincoln's little "hook" and she probaby conceived it after reading what Lizzie told Alice about her not laughing with the other girls in Marion, something comes over her etc. There's no basis for this theory- and if it's agreed it has no bearing on the crime, I wish Lincoln would have left it out.

I understand as well, what you mean- we've tried to cover other disorders which might seem like epilepsy, or any disoder at all which might be a mitigating circumstance under the law- and still allow for travel and for a relatively normal- to an outsider- life for Lizzie. Not ruling out anything reasonable- but personally I don't think seizures fit with what we know of Lizzie.

Pippi may I ask- I was confused- you said you didn't read Lincoln- but you know her theory?

[Allen]

I still don't see it as possible even for the reasons you guys have noted- maybe especially because of those reasons.

What did you mean by especially because of them?

[stuartwsa]

Lincoln seemed to imply that there were other examples of Lizzie's well-known "spells." Are there any other known examples that are part of Fall River lore but were not mentioned in her book?

[Angel]

After having read the archives and the recent posts I really do think that Lizzie was the victim of, at the very least, emotional abuse from both the mother and father. One reads all the time of abused wives taking crap for years and then feeling justified about plotting and killing their abusive husbands to end the misery. These people do not have remorse afterwards- just a feeling of relief and safety for the first time in years. Put this together with Lizzie possibly being schizophrenic, and it all makes sense. The "spells" could have been catatonic moments, or just being removed from reality with voices, hallucinations or whatever. What do you think?

[Allen]

My original question did not center around the idea of whether or not anyone believes Lizzie had epilepsy.Thats a matter of opinion, and I do believe it would be hard to diagnose on a patient long dead. My original question was why everyone believes that a seizure more or less means someone is "having a fit". Why most people believe the seizures would have to be so readily apparent to those unaware of a persons condition.I have read that temporal lobe or petite mal seizures may be hard to recognize, especially in children, because children have the tendency to "zone out", or day dream. Which is what these seizures may appear to be for someone who is unaware of the condition. They can last only seconds in some cases.As well as being aware of the fact that my nephew's teacher believed at these times he was simply not paying attention in class, and would reprimand him, until his condition was subsequently diagnosed.This was the basis for my asking the question.

[lydiapinkham]

One possible support for a seizure disorder is in the descriptions of Lizzie's fainting spell (s) in the courtroom, Allen. Some of the reporters describe staring and color changes in addition to actual collapse.

Some seizures begin later in life. For the sake of argument, supposing hers began in the year between Europe and the murders, Kat? Lizzie's behavior just after the crimes was indicative of dissociation and sense of unreality such as is described in the above mentioned article. Obviously, there's no way of knowing, but I'm not sure we can dismiss it out of hand either.

Just keeping an open mind here--
Lyddie

[Kat]

I originally said that I think there would be further proof of this later in Lizzie's life. I still think that, and thanks for pointing out that a disorder might crop up between the trip and the murders.
I do think tho that Lizzie was always considered *odd* and so I think whatever it was was something she always struggled with and depending upon what it was, may or may not have influenced her to kill (if she did).
I really don't discount any medical diagnosis, nor reject any psychological explanation for the behavior of Lizzie that we agree is reasonable, if she did the killings. All diagnosis' are interesting to me including substance abuse.
I think we each have our emphasis and one might be the temporal lobe and another, drug or alcohol abuse (patent medicine addiction?)- but we none of us can prove it. But we should look at the later Lizzie's behaviour to help us decide.

--I think there was one faint of Lizzie after Moody's opening at the trial.
I recall after the crime the ladies thought she was faint but she wasn't after all.

[Audrey]

The possible relationship between an epileptic seizure and criminal behavior beyond the misdemeanor level is extremely controversial. It is generally agreed among neurologists and epileptologists that well-organized, purposeful, complicated, or goal-directed behavior is highly unlikely during a seizure. In order to evaluate the rare possibility that an individual has committed a purposeful crime during a seizure, numerous variables must be considered. These include whether the individual has epilepsy, the type of seizure that person has, the type of behaviors he or she typically exhibits during a seizure, the type of behavior the individual exhibits when not having seizures, and, the most difficult to establish, a connection between the seizure disorder and its behavior and the behavior taking place at the time of the crime. The opinion of the individual's neurologist, who is familiar with his or her seizure pattern and behavior, will be very important in making this determination.


from: http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/answe ... /crime.cfm

I feel it is important to note that Lizzie's behavior while not having a seizure was that of a volunteer, animal lover and Sunday school teacher...

The last sentence is the most telling... Lincoln's "top ranking psychiatrist at johns Hopkins" (page 25/hardcover) could hardly have been familiar with Lizzie's health. It is also worth noting that the doctor was never named and Lincoln's book was published in 1967 (the year I was born!) and psychiatry has come a LONG way since then.

[Audrey]

Also..

During complex
partial seizures of temporal lobe origin (the
most common type), patients typically stare,
and may repeatedly blink their eyes, smack
their lips, carry on chewing or swallowing
movements, and produce repeated patting,
rubbing or wringing movements of their
hands. They may fidget with belongings,
stand up, move about, or even rush out of the
room. There may rarely be brief violence, but
violence is seldom sustained and never
purposeful or organized

PDF Page #2: http://medinfo.ufl.edu/year2/neuro/epilepsy.pdf

I would think getting a hatchet would seem purposeful or organized--- Unless they happened to be using one as a doorstop or other guest room accessory!

[Allen]

Yeah I read many of those symptoms on the site that I posted the link for above, which also included these symptoms.

"Psychic phenomena

Patients may have a feeling of déjà vu or jamais vu, a sense of familiarity or unfamiliarity, respectively.

Patients may experience depersonalization (ie, feeling of detachment from oneself) or derealization (ie, surroundings appear unreal).

Fear or anxiety usually is associated with seizures arising from the amygdala.

Patients may describe a sense of dissociation or autoscopy, in which they report seeing their own body from outside."

[Audrey]

"jamais vu" basically means never before seen...

I love the term....

Something that seems new even though you have done it many times...

[Kat]

AAARRRGGGHHH!
I just spent hours looking at 800+ LINCOLNs at an ancestry site trying to find Victoria's family.
Does anyone have her bio?

I found Leontine and his wife and son, from 1870, 1910 and 1920 census. The only child I found here was Leontine , Jr. who was single and living at home throughout this time frame. Leontine Sr., lived 1846- 1923 so you see I have 30 missing years - just long enough for Leontine and Amelia (?) to have the rest of their family...
Can anyone provide the name of Victoria's link to Leontine, supposedly her grandfather?
My book is asleep.

[Harry]

Victoria Lincoln's papers are in the :

Special Collections
Milton S. Eisenhower Library
The Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218

410-516-8348

There is a lengthy article on this collection and some biographical information on her and the family at this site:

http://www.library.jhu.edu/collections/ ... ms313.html

The article contains this tid-bit:

"A complete manuscript (with corrections) of A Private Disgrace is filed in the Writings Series. It's original title was "Miss Borden of Maplecroft."

I would love to see the corrections she made. She missed a few though.

[weber]

This link is very interesting. I only wished I lived in Maryland...I would take a look. I wonder what Lincoln's mother's notebooks from 1891-1894 contained? The site also states that there are photographs in the collection. Those would be interesting.

Is anyone in the Baltimore vicinity that could take a look for us? I wish that everything was available online!

[Audrey]

Does anyone happen to have a photo of Victoria?

[Pippi]

sorry I'll clarify,

Allen: I was thinking possibly another seizure disorder than Lincoln described as posted here, much to what you were saying about your experience with seizure disorders, also what Audrey quotes later about complex partials..the part about authors is that I leave things open since everyone has a different take.

to Kat: I don't know the details of Lincolns theory, I don't know her theory in and out and I didn't mean to imply that if I did. What I've read around and what has been expressed about her theory of Lizzie's epilepsy doesn't seem to hold water but other complex partial seizure disorders as Allen mentioned might fit... still regardless of whether Lizzie had a seizure disorder I can't see that resulting directly in murder. As Audrey quoted violence is seldom sustained or purposeful.

[Kat]

Thanks for trhe explanation.
Just while I was reading you the local news had a story on a school bus driver who had a seizure while driving and had an accident with children on board.
That's the closest I can think of of how that disorder might harm others.

Thanks, Har! I can't get there from here.
I tried Explorer annd Safari....

[Pippi]

this article just "came across my desk", it's one person's view of what a complex partial seizure can feel like... it's described here mostly feeling completely separate however again, there are so many types of complex partial seizures which would vary the feelings and memory allowing the person to be more aware of what was going on but feel "out of sorts" etc.

http://www.twoheadedcat.com/content/art ... cleID=1141

[Kat]

Thanks for the link, Har!!

I needed an 1880 or a 1900 census to see Jonathan T. living with and son of Leontine Lincoln.
Did not find it after looking again at 800+ "Lincolns".

Something odd. I did find Leontine with Ameila in 1870 census, but no Jonathan Thayer Lincoln, tho he was born in 1869!
There was a servant living with them, named Bridget Murphy, aged 21.

I can't place J.T. in Leontine's house.
I can place him in his own establishment in 1910, with Victoria at 5 years old, but her brother, Jonathan, Jr., not yet born. He was born c. 1911, so he missed the 1910 census!
Crickey!
I think that's it.
By 1930, Jonathan Jr. is 19, single, and living with his parents it looks like "Larch" St.? Victoria was gone by then (apparently with this Isaac Watkins, her first husband according to Harry's link info).

In 1910, at 182 June St., we have Jonathan T. and Louise S.C. and Victoria and 2 servants: Alice Hickey and Catherine A. Rooney.
(The servant's names are my interpretation of the handwriting)

In 1910, aged 41, Jonathan T. was listed as "Superintendent, Machine Shop" but in 1930, aged 60, he was listed as "Educator, University." How'd he do that?

[Allen]

Thanks so much for the link Harry. That describes in pretty vivid detail what it is like suffer from temporal lobe seizures. It makes it much easier to understand what it must be like, though you can never really know unless you suffer from it yourself, that brings it as close as you can get.

How I wish I could get a look at those papers that had belonged to Lincoln. I wonder if they contain answers to any of the questions I have about her, or sources for some of the information in her book that seems uncorroborated? I told my husband I should plan a road trip sometime soon, thats about 4-5 hours from where I live. He just shook his head and went back to watching the Outdoor Life Channel . Men. He is one of those men who will wander around the house for an hour looking for the remote, instead of walking up and changing the channel on the T.V, and who flips through all the channels during commercials because "they are advertising". I feel like I'm watching twenty programs at once. But you know, I don't think he realizes I was serious

[Kat]

Have you all got to the part where Lincoln claims all the Porter books were bought up by Lizzie (or her rep.?) and destroyed?
The LBQ had an article, wonderfully researched, which counted modern-day holdings of copies extant. I think they were up to about 40? I know we have one. And in reading the Pearson/Knowlton Correspondence, which appeared over time in the LBQ, I counted 6 copies just being mentioned there- some held in private hands, some in Gov. archives. I don't know if the earlier total and these overlap but during the first bit of the time of the correspondence there were accounted for:

Porter's book:

1- Pearson
1-Mass. State Library at the State House, Boston
1- Social Law Library at Courthouse, Boston
1- Fall River Police Chief Feeney
1- Frank Knowlton
1- J.M Swift

These are mentioned between Aug., 1923 and March, 1924.

[hhtiles]

At the '92 conference in FR (i attended) Patterson Smith of montclair, nj, presented abouthow the rarity is wrong, i even have an original and i know at least 8 other people who have an original. i think VL got that info from a previous book.

[Kat]

Hi!
Are you interested in tracking down who wrote that first?

[Harry]

If you have $300 to spare you can snap up this Victoria Lincoln novel "The Swan Island Murders"

http://www.abaa.org/detailindex.php?rec ... ce=froogle

Imagine that, she knew Lizzie Borden. Yeah, right.

[hhtiles]

I've look up cites of the Porter book. Tthe more important books on the Borden case reveals an evolution of author-to-author citing this “legend” of the rarity of Porter’s book. It appears it begins with Lincoln because even in the 1937, Edmund Pearson’s “bible”, the Trial Essay, Pearson doesn't even mention anything about Lizzie buying out the printer, etc. Since he believed in LB’s guilt I’d think he would have mentioned it, same way Radin, proposing Bridget did it, made a point of NOT mentioning it.

Masterton “Lizzie Didn’t Do It”, and Muriel Arnold, “Hands of Time” had no reference to the rarity of Porter’s book. Nor did Angela Carter. (BTW, I think Muriel’s Ward 4 and Neighborhood sketches in the front of her book are far better and more encompassing than others that have been published). There are many references to the “rarity”, i.e., “Lizzie bought out….” in numerous compendium books – too many to cite here. And I didn’t even bother with the fictional accounts of the Borden case (Hunter, Engstrom, Satterthwait).

So here it is:

1967 – Private Disgrace – Lincoln p27
“…bought off the printer had the books destroyed”

1967 – Private Disgrace – Lincoln p304
“The town was further irked when Lizzie bought up The Fall River Tragedy and nobody had a chance to read it. Everyone wanted to. As I told you at the start of our story, I had to wait for the pleasure forty years before I found the first copy that I had ever seen, in the Library of Congress.”

1968 – Untold Story – Radin p16
“The Fall River Tragedy, by Edwin H. Porter, a Fall River police reporter, who stoutly defended Fall River police for arresting Lizzie Borden. This book, published in Fall River, had a limited sale and circulation. “

1974 – Goodbye Lizzie Borden – Sullivan p142
“…virtually all copies were purchased and destroyed by Lizzie.”

1984 – “Lizzie” -Spiering p36 His footnote:
“The Fall River Tragedy by Edwin H. Porter, printed privately in 1893, was the first book published about the murders. Only four copies are known to exist. A copy which was originally in the Library of Congress has vanished, one is kept at the State House in Boston, one is in the archives of the Fall River Historical Society and one is in my possession. Lizzie bought off the printer and had all the other copies destroyed before they reached the bookshops.”

1991 – Legend of Lizzie Borden – Brown p89-90
“It is not known how many copies of The Fall River Tragedy were printed, but it had to be several hundred if not several thousand. Fifty years ago only two copies were known to exist, and one other copy was rumored. Mrs. Brigham at the Fall River Historical Society has reported that four copies are now held by the society, and she knows of one other held privately. Even the copy that should be held by the Library of Congress is missing. The overwhelming majority of the press run simply disappeared the day it was published. Miss Lizzie, the legend says, acting on the advice of Andrew Jennings, bought up and destroyed every copy she could. If Lizzie did not do that, someone did. “

1992 – Forty Whacks – Kent xiv
“Knowledge of what Porter had done was unwittingly obscured when Lizzie, learning of the publication, was rumored to have bought up all but about 25 subscription copies and had them destroyed. Thus, only a few ever saw what Porter had written and were unaware of his distortions. But scholars ferreted out the half-dozen copies held in public libraries and other institutions and these became the sourcebooks for all research. Fortunately for historians, Porter's book was rescued from limbo in 1985 and reprinted by King Philip Publishing Company of Portland, Maine. “

Seems to me, a pattern emerges...having taken it on faith what VL said back in 1967.

[Kat]

Thanks for all the info.
I doubt tho it originated with Lincoln. I am wondering if it is Pearson after all, as in his Correspondence, through 1930, they are all mentioning Porter. Pearson did have chapters on The Borden Case before 1937. It could be in Studies In Murder, More Studies In Murder, Five Murders, or Murder at Smuttynose, which are all pre-1937.
There is also this Correpondence with Knowlton which I will go over again.
Ed. Rowe Snow wrote in 1959, 1968 and 1977- maybe it is there?

BTW: Radin was published in 1961.

[Kat]

From the Pearson-Knowlton correspondence:

"July 30, 1923
Dear Knowlton [Frank],-
...I have the only book, so far as I know, ever published on the Borden case; it is by Porter of the Fall River Globe, it is out of print and scarce. I have heard that the Borden estate bought it up and suppressed it, as far as possible. I am also planning to go to Fall River to learn what I can there...to get reports of the testimony..."

--These letters seem to have been a part of the whole Knowlton Papers collection which were donated to the Historical Society, though the LBQ Editor does not say specifically that these were donated at the same time as the others- though they were all donated by the son of this Frank Knowlton, grandson of Hosea. Dennis Binette, Asst. Curator, FRHS wrote in an introduction:
"A good portion of the documents referred to are currently part of the Borden archive at the Historical Society, some of which were published as The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie A. Borden: The Knowlton Papers 1892-1893.." --The Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Vol. IV, Number 4, October, 1997, page 7.

--These items were collected between the two, Frank and Edmund, from various places and that is how the papers came together during Pearson's research of the Borden case.

Rebello:
Page 385

" 'Lizzie Borden Trial Papers Available: Prosecutor's Grandson Donates Them to Fall River Historical Society,' Providence Journal, September 6, 1989: A3."

--So now how did V. Lincoln get ahold of this info?