. What are your thoughts on Abby being killed while in a room she almost never visited. Bad luck or was she guided there? Same with Andrew, would he have been killed if he had stayed in his bedroom upon getting home? Bad luck or something else?Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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camgarsky4
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Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Lowering our conversations down to the tactical level. 
. What are your thoughts on Abby being killed while in a room she almost never visited. Bad luck or was she guided there? Same with Andrew, would he have been killed if he had stayed in his bedroom upon getting home? Bad luck or something else?
. What are your thoughts on Abby being killed while in a room she almost never visited. Bad luck or was she guided there? Same with Andrew, would he have been killed if he had stayed in his bedroom upon getting home? Bad luck or something else?-
Marchesk
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
My guess is opportunistic. Lizzie was determined to kill both of them as soon as the opportunity presented itself, and by the 4th she was determined enough to use a hatchet. Uncle John was a complication, but she could probably count on him being away for the later morning. I don't recall if Lizzie knew whether her uncle had been invited back for lunch.
Is it known whether Andrew and Abby locked their bedroom door when going in there to lie down? One potential problem with killing Andrew in his room is that Bridget might have heard Lizzie from the third floor. Lizzie needed to be reasonably sure that Bridget was far enough out of sight and sound for both murders. It's quite possible Lizzie was going to wait for the afternoon in hopes Bridget would go clothes shopping, but then Andrew decided to nap in the sitting room.
Another question is whether Lizzie was prepared to kill Bridget if the need arose. For those who don't think Lizzie did it, then the murderer didn't think Bridget or Lizzie needed to die. If it was Bridget, then obviously she had no need of killing Lizzie, even though Lizzie would likely have seen or heard Bridget going upstairs to the front where she had no business being.
Is it known whether Andrew and Abby locked their bedroom door when going in there to lie down? One potential problem with killing Andrew in his room is that Bridget might have heard Lizzie from the third floor. Lizzie needed to be reasonably sure that Bridget was far enough out of sight and sound for both murders. It's quite possible Lizzie was going to wait for the afternoon in hopes Bridget would go clothes shopping, but then Andrew decided to nap in the sitting room.
Another question is whether Lizzie was prepared to kill Bridget if the need arose. For those who don't think Lizzie did it, then the murderer didn't think Bridget or Lizzie needed to die. If it was Bridget, then obviously she had no need of killing Lizzie, even though Lizzie would likely have seen or heard Bridget going upstairs to the front where she had no business being.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
I do think the original plan was to kill Abby while Andrew was predictably away that morning and Andrew in the early afternoon. My theory is that Andrew, upon arriving home, told her Morse was coming to lunch and that threw lizzies timeline into chaos. From that moment on Lizzie was making ad hoc decisions. If John arrived for lunch and hung around, the game was up. Abby would be missed and found. The reason the alibi was so weak is that is was literally conceived on the spot. The planned shopping alibi was kaput.
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PossumPie
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Some logical thoughts:
1. The killer killed both Mr. and Mrs. Borden (not just one intended target)
2. This couldn't have been done if they were in sight or earshot of each other (screams, escape would have complicated the murders.)
3. If they as the evidence shows were killed with a large time interval apart, the first victim would have to be in the basement or second floor or the second victim would have seen the carnage and run away.
4. If as some believe they were killed within minutes of each other, This would mean either Abbey was being killed upstairs while Andrew was preparing to lie down (unlikely) Or Andrew was killed downstairs while Abbey was upstairs in the guest room. Either way was very risky and not thought out well.
5. Everyone in the household was coming in, going out, going upstairs, coming downstairs at unpredictable intervals. A killer from outside the family would have absolutely no idea who was home, who was out of sight, etc. It would be reckless to walk into a house with a hatchet unannounced not knowing where anyone was. ONE SINGLE SCREAM during this whole time would have summoned neighbors, other house members, or a passerby.
6. Someone in the home (Bridget or Lizzie) would be the only person who could scout out the locations of the victims and wait until the perfect moment when either one or the other wasn't home or they were not within earshot of the killing.
7. If it were not Bridget or Lizzie, it must be impulsive, not planned, and the killer mustn't have cared about the chances of getting caught. There just doesn't seem like a plausible scenario where someone comes in off of the street with any assurance that a house member won't be right there to see them. Lizzie and Bridget could walk in on the killer at any time, find the first victim while the killer was killing the second victim, or have their escape route cut off while upstairs killing Abbey.
8. If Lizzie were the killer, her quiet, reserved personality coupled with her knowledge of where everyone was in the house points away from impulsive act and more towards well-thought out. No indication of how long it was planned, but it probably wasn't planned for a specific day, more for a specific situation (Father away but coming back in a reasonable time) and Abbey doing something not on the first floor.
IF Lizzie did it, she would have made sure that all testimony and evidence showed that Abbey was killed first (else the inheritance would go to Abbey's family not Lizzie.)
1. The killer killed both Mr. and Mrs. Borden (not just one intended target)
2. This couldn't have been done if they were in sight or earshot of each other (screams, escape would have complicated the murders.)
3. If they as the evidence shows were killed with a large time interval apart, the first victim would have to be in the basement or second floor or the second victim would have seen the carnage and run away.
4. If as some believe they were killed within minutes of each other, This would mean either Abbey was being killed upstairs while Andrew was preparing to lie down (unlikely) Or Andrew was killed downstairs while Abbey was upstairs in the guest room. Either way was very risky and not thought out well.
5. Everyone in the household was coming in, going out, going upstairs, coming downstairs at unpredictable intervals. A killer from outside the family would have absolutely no idea who was home, who was out of sight, etc. It would be reckless to walk into a house with a hatchet unannounced not knowing where anyone was. ONE SINGLE SCREAM during this whole time would have summoned neighbors, other house members, or a passerby.
6. Someone in the home (Bridget or Lizzie) would be the only person who could scout out the locations of the victims and wait until the perfect moment when either one or the other wasn't home or they were not within earshot of the killing.
7. If it were not Bridget or Lizzie, it must be impulsive, not planned, and the killer mustn't have cared about the chances of getting caught. There just doesn't seem like a plausible scenario where someone comes in off of the street with any assurance that a house member won't be right there to see them. Lizzie and Bridget could walk in on the killer at any time, find the first victim while the killer was killing the second victim, or have their escape route cut off while upstairs killing Abbey.
8. If Lizzie were the killer, her quiet, reserved personality coupled with her knowledge of where everyone was in the house points away from impulsive act and more towards well-thought out. No indication of how long it was planned, but it probably wasn't planned for a specific day, more for a specific situation (Father away but coming back in a reasonable time) and Abbey doing something not on the first floor.
IF Lizzie did it, she would have made sure that all testimony and evidence showed that Abbey was killed first (else the inheritance would go to Abbey's family not Lizzie.)
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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camgarsky4
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Possum, check out the thread ‘To whom the property’, it is just a few threads below. This legal interpretation would tell us the death sequence was inconsequential. I think we agree that if Lizzie did it, she woke up that morning with the intent. Next question, was she just lucky that Abby randomly went to the guest room? It was truly the very best place for Lizzie to strike with best chance of no discovery. Several testimonies make it clear that Abby almost never went to the guest room and did not have cleaning duties. That was Emma and Lizzie. All that said, Lizzie seems to love control and on a couple of occasions (post burglary & murders), seemed to play the part of stage director. Did she somehow ‘lure’ Abby to the guest room? Or maybe it was SOP for Abby to clean that room after Morse visits and Lizzie has a good idea it would happen when she got home Wed nite and realized Morse was staying the nite. Was that what sparked Thursday being death day? She knew opportunity was knocking.
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PossumPie
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
I've heard that argument before, but I contend that it was "common thought" then and now that broadly speaking death of one spouse causes other spouse to get all of the marital assets. The complications and nuances of inheritance law is above most of our comprehension. Death of Mr. Borden transfers assets to Mrs. Borden. Death of Mrs. Borden is complicated. It may be assumed that Lizzie didn't know if Abbey had a will or not, and who the assets were left to in such hypothetical will. The bottom line is that common sense and cautiousness would cause Lizzie to make sure Abbey was known to be dead first, leaving no possibility that any money would leave the daughters. Andrew could have had a will, I don't know if Lizzie would know about it or not, nor of how the assets were divided up. Given the risks, kill the step-parent first to assure less chance of losing out on some inheritance.camgarsky4 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:32 am Possum, check out the thread ‘To whom the property’, it is just a few threads below. This legal interpretation would tell us the death sequence was inconsequential. I think we agree that if Lizzie did it, she woke up that morning with the intent. Next question, was she just lucky that Abby randomly went to the guest room? It was truly the very best place for Lizzie to strike with best chance of no discovery. Several testimonies make it clear that Abby almost never went to the guest room and did not have cleaning duties. That was Emma and Lizzie. All that said, Lizzie seems to love control and on a couple of occasions (post burglary & murders), seemed to play the part of stage director. Did she somehow ‘lure’ Abby to the guest room? Or maybe it was SOP for Abby to clean that room after Morse visits and Lizzie has a good idea it would happen when she got home Wed nite and realized Morse was staying the nite. Was that what sparked Thursday being death day? She knew opportunity was knocking.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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camgarsky4
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Possum, I think we’ll end up disagreeing on this one. Sequence of deaths feels pretty sophisticated to me and I think the actual sequence was completely due to Andrew going downtown every morning and only time slot to deal with Abby. I would think Lizzie assumed the $ would go to the children of the dead folks, and Emma and Lizzie were the only kids (don’t tell Brown I said that!). 
. Either way, to my thinking, it’s a pretty neutral issue.
. Either way, to my thinking, it’s a pretty neutral issue.-
Miss Pea
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
"Sequence of deaths feels pretty sophisticated to me" [camgarsky4, I haven't quite figured out how to post with quotes,etc.)
I agree that Lizzie was not concerned with the legalities of the "order of death" of spouses. Good lord, she had enough to think through.
I am so impressed with contents of this forum. I am no longer salivating on getting my hands on the hefty "Parallel Lives." These posts are better!
I agree that Lizzie was not concerned with the legalities of the "order of death" of spouses. Good lord, she had enough to think through.
I am so impressed with contents of this forum. I am no longer salivating on getting my hands on the hefty "Parallel Lives." These posts are better!
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camgarsky4
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Pea, I hope you are studying the primary documents on the virtual library website! Sometimes us posters blow some smoke that is misguided....I know I do.
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Miss Pea
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
A good reminder: primary sources, primary sources. Love your posts, though.
I keep thinking "She was an odd bird." But, I am, too.
I keep thinking "She was an odd bird." But, I am, too.
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PossumPie
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Perhaps you are right camgarsky4. The only plausible reason she might know is if she was considering inheritance and did some research about it. Paying a lawyer to answer the question would insure that that lawyer would never tell, (client-lawyer privilege) I HATE wild speculation and the simplest explanation is usually correct- Luck of the draw Abbey was first is less complicated that Lizzie researching it. Anyway if we accept the premise that she wanted to poison them (and maybe attempted to) there would be no way to guarantee who died first. Great Post camgarsky4! A bit of research turned this up: From Lizzie Borden Past & Present p. 277:
"If Andrew Borden was killed first, Abby Borden's heirs would have been entitled to one-third of the estate. Emma and Lizzie would have received two-thirds of their father's estate." (The Public Statutes of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Boston: Wynn and Potler Printing Co., State Printers, 1886, Chapter 24, Sec. 3, Chapter 125, Sec. 1.)
"If Andrew Borden was killed first, Abby Borden's heirs would have been entitled to one-third of the estate. Emma and Lizzie would have received two-thirds of their father's estate." (The Public Statutes of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Boston: Wynn and Potler Printing Co., State Printers, 1886, Chapter 24, Sec. 3, Chapter 125, Sec. 1.)
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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camgarsky4
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
For some reason I struggle a bit re-finding specific info in Rebello's book. The index is pretty good, but I often find myself randomly thumbing thru pages trying to find something I've read before and want to reread. Anyone else have this issue? Might be 'user error'!
Sounds like there are legal opinions that cover the gambit on the inheritance. I just don't think 'clever' or 'complex' were her strengths.
All that said, Possum, you may recall there was a rumor that she talked to a Lawyer in Providence (I think), but the lawyer in question denied it. 99% sure this info is in Knowlton Papers. To your point, if you read his actual denial, it sort of feels like lawyer speak. So even though I don't think she considered the sequence, I'm not concrete on it. I'm 1,000 miles from my book or I'd post the actual quote and page #.
Sounds like there are legal opinions that cover the gambit on the inheritance. I just don't think 'clever' or 'complex' were her strengths.
All that said, Possum, you may recall there was a rumor that she talked to a Lawyer in Providence (I think), but the lawyer in question denied it. 99% sure this info is in Knowlton Papers. To your point, if you read his actual denial, it sort of feels like lawyer speak. So even though I don't think she considered the sequence, I'm not concrete on it. I'm 1,000 miles from my book or I'd post the actual quote and page #.
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PossumPie
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
I own most of the "essential" books in hardback/paperback form, but where ever possible I get a PDF copy for my PC. I hit CTRL-F and put any word/phrase into the search box and POOF! it takes me to that page. I learned that a few years back studying for my doctorate in nursing. E. Choli? Hit search and every location in my textbook where E. Choli occurs pops up! I LOVE having Lizzie Borden Past & Present in PDF format as there are many quotes/facts in that book. Also the entire trial transcripts in PDF form is a breeze to search.camgarsky4 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:41 pm For some reason I struggle a bit re-finding specific info in Rebello's book. The index is pretty good, but I often find myself randomly thumbing thru pages trying to find something I've read before and want to reread. Anyone else have this issue? Might be 'user error'!
Sounds like there are legal opinions that cover the gambit on the inheritance. I just don't think 'clever' or 'complex' were her strengths.
All that said, Possum, you may recall there was a rumor that she talked to a Lawyer in Providence (I think), but the lawyer in question denied it. 99% sure this info is in Knowlton Papers. To your point, if you read his actual denial, it sort of feels like lawyer speak. So even though I don't think she considered the sequence, I'm not concrete on it. I'm 1,000 miles from my book or I'd post the actual quote and page #.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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camgarsky4
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
That is cool and I am jealous. How and where did you get Rebello in PDF format?
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Reasonwhy
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Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Camgarsky4,
Below is copied from Kay’s posting under the topic, “Victoria Lincoln Never Dies!”:
Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:04 am
Here is a "Simple Index" to Len Rebello's book compiled by me and Terence Duniho, based on the constant need to search for mainly Biographical Info.
I suggest book owners print it out and keep in the back of the tome. At least that's what I do.
Adams, John S. 453
Adams, Melvin Ohio 197
Allen, Charles M. (built Maplecroft) 287
Almy, Franklin (Emma's admin/bondsman) 277-278
Almy, William M. 53
Anderson, Mrs. Matilda Wilhemina Johnson (Anderson) (listed as Domestic)
328
Anthony, David M., Jr. 139
Baker, Charles A. (witness L's will) 340
Baker, Gertrude Mary (legatee of "L", or of her legatee) 335
Bence, Eli 80
Blackwood, Algernon 203
Blaisdell, Judge Josiah Coleman 152
Blenn, Emma MacVicar (legatee of "L", or) 330-331
Blodgett, Caleb 193
Borden, Abby Durfee Gray 22
Borden, Abraham Bowen 3, 6, 23, 25-27
Borden, Andrew Jackson 3 (correct birth date), 6, 23, 25
Borden, Anna Howland 20
Borden, Bebe Wilmarth 4
Borden, Carrie Lindley 21
Borden, Charles Lott (includes Amanda, Hannah, Eliza Ann, William S., Phebe
Hathaway) 373-377
Borden, Charlton W. (A.J.B. scholarship recipient) 346
Borden, Emma Lenora (Impressions of: 228-237) 7, 138, 228, 231, 310, 341
Borden, James 357
Borden, Lizzie A. (Impressions of: 228-237) 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15,
17, 19, 20, 228, 231, 236, 318
Borden, Peace (Borden) Bassett (includes 4 Bordens: Stephen, Mary Catherine
(Hart), Charles
Harold, Joseph H., Susannah B. Crossman, Sylvester L.& William L. Bassett)
377-379
Borden, Sarah Anthony Morse 6
Borden, William S. 130, 373
Bowen, Joseph A. (bondsman Emma / Admin.) 277-278
Bowen, Dr. Seabury Warren 69, 136
Boucher, Mary (listed as Domestic) 289
Braley, William E. (newspaper sketch artist) 207
Brayton, Elizabeth Hitchcock 21
Brown, Arnold R. (no bio., listed as Books) 372
Brownell, Helen M. 83
Buck, Rev. Edwin Augustus 15
Buffinton, George H. 359n
Bump, George Leonard 297
Callow, Gertrude M. (Russell) (listed as Domestic) 289
Carlisle, Elsie F. 337
Carpenter, Joseph W., Jr. 56, 132, 133
Churchill, Adelaide (Buffinton) 98
Collins, James (?) (witness / Emma's will) 347, 349
Cook, Charles C. 329
Correiro, Jose 188
Coughlin, Mayor John William 10 different pages in Rebello's index, but
no bio info
Cleveland, Rev. Edmond J. ("L" funeral svc.) 320
Coggshall, Fredrick (listed as Domestic) (pallbearer) 319
Cunningham, Allan 324
Demarest, Mary Augusta (Lee) 323
deMille, Agnes 369, 466
Dewey, Judge Justin 194
Doherty, Patrick H. 7 different pages in Rebello's index, but no bio info
Dolan, Dr. William Andrew 99
Eagan, Ellen 128, 129
Eldredge, Obed (Jane Gray's first husband / includes Henry H., Lucy J.
(Eldredge) Cahoon) 23
Emery, William (listed under Collections as 384) 386
Fall River 393
Fessenden, Susan Breese (Snowden) 169, 259
Fielding, Thomas (A.J.B. scholarship rec.) 346
Fish, Priscilla & George 23
Fleet, John 149
Freeman, Mary Eleanor (Wilkins) 441
French, Winifred F. 336
Gardner, Orrin A. (he or Julia A. Reed to name scholarship recipient) 342,
343, 346
Grant, Louis F. (newspaper sketch artist) 207
Hall, Barbara (A.J.B. scholarship rec.) 346
Hall, Norman (listed as Domestic) (pallbearer) 319
Hammond, John Wilkes 183
Handy, Dr. Benjamin Jones 65
Harrington, Hiram C. & Lurana (H.H. 438) (correct birth date- H.H. 3) 3,
4, 229
Harrington, Capt. Phillip 56, 151
Hawthorne, Henry J., Jr. (includes Arnold Brown, Lewis Peterson, Henry J.
Hawthorne, Bridget
(Gillespie) Hawthorne, Lawrence, Margaret, Elizabeth, Henry Jr. (above),
Mabel, Mary L.,
Catherine) 379-80
Hilliard, Marshal Rufus Bartlett 148
Howe, Col. Louis McHenry & Grace Hartley 333
Hunt, Josiah A. (jailkeeper / New Bedford) 67
Jennings, Andrew Jackson 196
Johnston, James 55
Jordan, Elizabeth Garver 204
Jubb, Rev. William Walker 167
Jurors 200-201
Kelly, Dr. Michael & Mrs. Caroline (includes Mrs. Philomena (Kelly) Hart,
Edmund
Pearson, Mary Doolan) 390
Kent, David 381
Knowlton, Hosea Morill 194
Lanza, Lee Cleverley (legatee of "L", or) 331
Leighton, Helen (legatee of "L", or) (includes Jefferson Borden, Eudora
[Borden] Dean) 330-331
Lincoln, Victoria Endicott (listed under Books) 367
Livermore, Mary Ashton (Rice) 169, 186, 259
Lubinsky, Hyman 88
Lunday, Todd (listed under Books) 363
MacFarland, Miss Catherine Mary (listed as Domestic) 334
Macomber, Lucy S. 337
Macrae, Dr. Annie Campbell 337
Manchester, Bertha 188
Maplecroft 282, 290
Mason, Judge Albert 193
McHenry, Edwin G. 164
Medley, William H. 150
Miller, Miss Ellen (Nellie) (listed as Domestic) 338
Miller, Southard Harrison 24
Minard, Martha (legatee of "L", or) 331
Minnehan, John 150
Mix, Rev. Dr. Eldridge 281
Moody, William Henry 195
Morse, John Vinnicum 70-71, 121
Morse, Sarah Anthony (Borden) 6
Munroe, John D. (owner / printer) 359n.
Nelson, Hannah B. (listed as Domestic) 288
Noonan, Katherine & Alice (witness Emma will, codicil) 347, 349
Nottingham, Ellen (witness "L" will) 340
O'Neil, Nance 308
Orters, Mary (Leighton) 336
Pearson, Edmund Lester (listed under Books) 363, 364, 402
Pemberton, Florence A. (listed as Domestic) 328
Phillips, Arthur Sherman 199
Pillsbury, Albert E. 16 different pages in Rebello's index, but no bio
info
Pinkham, Nellie (legatee of "L", or) 331
Plympton, Albert 447
Porter, Edwin H. (listed under Books) 206, 359, 360-361
Radin, Edward D. (listed under Books) 365, 366
Ralph, Julian 206
Rappaport, Doreen 381
Reagan, Hannah 158
Reed, Julia A. (either she or Orrin A. Gardner to name scholarship
recipient) 346
Reynolds, Mary A. 289
Robinson, Edson (cousin) 319
Robinson, George Dexter (cousin) 198
Rotenberg, Judge Ernest 349
Russell, Alice Manley 63
Russell, Mary U. (Thomas) 159
Sawyer, Charles S. 1 page referenced in Rebello's index, but no bio info
Shove, Ellen "Nellie" M. 21
Smith, Helen (listed as Domestic) 289
Soderman, Alice Isabella 336
Spiering, Frank 372
Stevens, S. (bondsman / Emma admin.) 277-278
Stone, Lucy 259
Sullivan, Bridget 65, 67, 273
Sullivan, Daniel 137
Terry, Carl A. (witness "L" will) 340
Terry, Ernest Alden 326
Tetrault (Tatro), Joseph H. (listed as Domestic) 288
Trickey, Henry G. 165
Turner, Vida Louise (Pearson) 321
Watters, Barbara (Hunt) 171
Washburn, Rev. Samuel 6
Whipp, Adelaide B. 338
Wood, Theodore D. W. 54
Buildings:
A. J. Borden Bldg. 56
Borden & Almy Furniture Business 53
Central Congregational Church 6
Central Police Station 143
French Street 287
Mission Bldg. 11
Second Street 32, 38, 45-49
Swansea Farm 50
Compilation of Names 511-542
Below is copied from Kay’s posting under the topic, “Victoria Lincoln Never Dies!”:
Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:04 am
Here is a "Simple Index" to Len Rebello's book compiled by me and Terence Duniho, based on the constant need to search for mainly Biographical Info.
I suggest book owners print it out and keep in the back of the tome. At least that's what I do.
Adams, John S. 453
Adams, Melvin Ohio 197
Allen, Charles M. (built Maplecroft) 287
Almy, Franklin (Emma's admin/bondsman) 277-278
Almy, William M. 53
Anderson, Mrs. Matilda Wilhemina Johnson (Anderson) (listed as Domestic)
328
Anthony, David M., Jr. 139
Baker, Charles A. (witness L's will) 340
Baker, Gertrude Mary (legatee of "L", or of her legatee) 335
Bence, Eli 80
Blackwood, Algernon 203
Blaisdell, Judge Josiah Coleman 152
Blenn, Emma MacVicar (legatee of "L", or) 330-331
Blodgett, Caleb 193
Borden, Abby Durfee Gray 22
Borden, Abraham Bowen 3, 6, 23, 25-27
Borden, Andrew Jackson 3 (correct birth date), 6, 23, 25
Borden, Anna Howland 20
Borden, Bebe Wilmarth 4
Borden, Carrie Lindley 21
Borden, Charles Lott (includes Amanda, Hannah, Eliza Ann, William S., Phebe
Hathaway) 373-377
Borden, Charlton W. (A.J.B. scholarship recipient) 346
Borden, Emma Lenora (Impressions of: 228-237) 7, 138, 228, 231, 310, 341
Borden, James 357
Borden, Lizzie A. (Impressions of: 228-237) 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15,
17, 19, 20, 228, 231, 236, 318
Borden, Peace (Borden) Bassett (includes 4 Bordens: Stephen, Mary Catherine
(Hart), Charles
Harold, Joseph H., Susannah B. Crossman, Sylvester L.& William L. Bassett)
377-379
Borden, Sarah Anthony Morse 6
Borden, William S. 130, 373
Bowen, Joseph A. (bondsman Emma / Admin.) 277-278
Bowen, Dr. Seabury Warren 69, 136
Boucher, Mary (listed as Domestic) 289
Braley, William E. (newspaper sketch artist) 207
Brayton, Elizabeth Hitchcock 21
Brown, Arnold R. (no bio., listed as Books) 372
Brownell, Helen M. 83
Buck, Rev. Edwin Augustus 15
Buffinton, George H. 359n
Bump, George Leonard 297
Callow, Gertrude M. (Russell) (listed as Domestic) 289
Carlisle, Elsie F. 337
Carpenter, Joseph W., Jr. 56, 132, 133
Churchill, Adelaide (Buffinton) 98
Collins, James (?) (witness / Emma's will) 347, 349
Cook, Charles C. 329
Correiro, Jose 188
Coughlin, Mayor John William 10 different pages in Rebello's index, but
no bio info
Cleveland, Rev. Edmond J. ("L" funeral svc.) 320
Coggshall, Fredrick (listed as Domestic) (pallbearer) 319
Cunningham, Allan 324
Demarest, Mary Augusta (Lee) 323
deMille, Agnes 369, 466
Dewey, Judge Justin 194
Doherty, Patrick H. 7 different pages in Rebello's index, but no bio info
Dolan, Dr. William Andrew 99
Eagan, Ellen 128, 129
Eldredge, Obed (Jane Gray's first husband / includes Henry H., Lucy J.
(Eldredge) Cahoon) 23
Emery, William (listed under Collections as 384) 386
Fall River 393
Fessenden, Susan Breese (Snowden) 169, 259
Fielding, Thomas (A.J.B. scholarship rec.) 346
Fish, Priscilla & George 23
Fleet, John 149
Freeman, Mary Eleanor (Wilkins) 441
French, Winifred F. 336
Gardner, Orrin A. (he or Julia A. Reed to name scholarship recipient) 342,
343, 346
Grant, Louis F. (newspaper sketch artist) 207
Hall, Barbara (A.J.B. scholarship rec.) 346
Hall, Norman (listed as Domestic) (pallbearer) 319
Hammond, John Wilkes 183
Handy, Dr. Benjamin Jones 65
Harrington, Hiram C. & Lurana (H.H. 438) (correct birth date- H.H. 3) 3,
4, 229
Harrington, Capt. Phillip 56, 151
Hawthorne, Henry J., Jr. (includes Arnold Brown, Lewis Peterson, Henry J.
Hawthorne, Bridget
(Gillespie) Hawthorne, Lawrence, Margaret, Elizabeth, Henry Jr. (above),
Mabel, Mary L.,
Catherine) 379-80
Hilliard, Marshal Rufus Bartlett 148
Howe, Col. Louis McHenry & Grace Hartley 333
Hunt, Josiah A. (jailkeeper / New Bedford) 67
Jennings, Andrew Jackson 196
Johnston, James 55
Jordan, Elizabeth Garver 204
Jubb, Rev. William Walker 167
Jurors 200-201
Kelly, Dr. Michael & Mrs. Caroline (includes Mrs. Philomena (Kelly) Hart,
Edmund
Pearson, Mary Doolan) 390
Kent, David 381
Knowlton, Hosea Morill 194
Lanza, Lee Cleverley (legatee of "L", or) 331
Leighton, Helen (legatee of "L", or) (includes Jefferson Borden, Eudora
[Borden] Dean) 330-331
Lincoln, Victoria Endicott (listed under Books) 367
Livermore, Mary Ashton (Rice) 169, 186, 259
Lubinsky, Hyman 88
Lunday, Todd (listed under Books) 363
MacFarland, Miss Catherine Mary (listed as Domestic) 334
Macomber, Lucy S. 337
Macrae, Dr. Annie Campbell 337
Manchester, Bertha 188
Maplecroft 282, 290
Mason, Judge Albert 193
McHenry, Edwin G. 164
Medley, William H. 150
Miller, Miss Ellen (Nellie) (listed as Domestic) 338
Miller, Southard Harrison 24
Minard, Martha (legatee of "L", or) 331
Minnehan, John 150
Mix, Rev. Dr. Eldridge 281
Moody, William Henry 195
Morse, John Vinnicum 70-71, 121
Morse, Sarah Anthony (Borden) 6
Munroe, John D. (owner / printer) 359n.
Nelson, Hannah B. (listed as Domestic) 288
Noonan, Katherine & Alice (witness Emma will, codicil) 347, 349
Nottingham, Ellen (witness "L" will) 340
O'Neil, Nance 308
Orters, Mary (Leighton) 336
Pearson, Edmund Lester (listed under Books) 363, 364, 402
Pemberton, Florence A. (listed as Domestic) 328
Phillips, Arthur Sherman 199
Pillsbury, Albert E. 16 different pages in Rebello's index, but no bio
info
Pinkham, Nellie (legatee of "L", or) 331
Plympton, Albert 447
Porter, Edwin H. (listed under Books) 206, 359, 360-361
Radin, Edward D. (listed under Books) 365, 366
Ralph, Julian 206
Rappaport, Doreen 381
Reagan, Hannah 158
Reed, Julia A. (either she or Orrin A. Gardner to name scholarship
recipient) 346
Reynolds, Mary A. 289
Robinson, Edson (cousin) 319
Robinson, George Dexter (cousin) 198
Rotenberg, Judge Ernest 349
Russell, Alice Manley 63
Russell, Mary U. (Thomas) 159
Sawyer, Charles S. 1 page referenced in Rebello's index, but no bio info
Shove, Ellen "Nellie" M. 21
Smith, Helen (listed as Domestic) 289
Soderman, Alice Isabella 336
Spiering, Frank 372
Stevens, S. (bondsman / Emma admin.) 277-278
Stone, Lucy 259
Sullivan, Bridget 65, 67, 273
Sullivan, Daniel 137
Terry, Carl A. (witness "L" will) 340
Terry, Ernest Alden 326
Tetrault (Tatro), Joseph H. (listed as Domestic) 288
Trickey, Henry G. 165
Turner, Vida Louise (Pearson) 321
Watters, Barbara (Hunt) 171
Washburn, Rev. Samuel 6
Whipp, Adelaide B. 338
Wood, Theodore D. W. 54
Buildings:
A. J. Borden Bldg. 56
Borden & Almy Furniture Business 53
Central Congregational Church 6
Central Police Station 143
French Street 287
Mission Bldg. 11
Second Street 32, 38, 45-49
Swansea Farm 50
Compilation of Names 511-542
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Reasonwhy
- Posts: 692
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- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Jodi
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
I mean Kat, of course!
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Reasonwhy
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:21 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Jodi
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
And of course I should have said, thanks, Kat!
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PossumPie
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:26 am
- Real Name: Possum Pie
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
I forget where I got it, but you can "borrow" an e-copy from several online libraries. Here is one:
https://archive.org/details/lizzieborde ... e/mode/2up
Borrowing e-books is just like borrowing real books, sign up for an account, find the book, check it out/download it, read it, and it automatically is returned after the loan period. My local library has a great selection.
https://archive.org/details/lizzieborde ... e/mode/2up
Borrowing e-books is just like borrowing real books, sign up for an account, find the book, check it out/download it, read it, and it automatically is returned after the loan period. My local library has a great selection.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1573
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Huge thanks to both of you!
Kat -- once again, what a piece of luck for the rest of us that you decided to reactivate on this forum!! Please stay.
Kat -- once again, what a piece of luck for the rest of us that you decided to reactivate on this forum!! Please stay.
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1573
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Possum, that last sentiment goes for you too!!
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PossumPie
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:26 am
- Real Name: Possum Pie
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Complete index I posted here yesterday was subsequently deleted by me.
1. I realized that if you have the book, you have the index...duh.
2. I often search for my old posts by searching my username and a key word. Having this post makes it pop up in every search I do of my old posts. A nuisance.
1. I realized that if you have the book, you have the index...duh.
2. I often search for my old posts by searching my username and a key word. Having this post makes it pop up in every search I do of my old posts. A nuisance.
Last edited by PossumPie on Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Reasonwhy
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:21 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Jodi
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Possum,PossumPie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:50 pm I forget where I got it, but you can "borrow" an e-copy from several online libraries. Here is one:
https://archive.org/details/lizzieborde ... e/mode/2up
Borrowing e-books is just like borrowing real books, sign up for an account, find the book, check it out/download it, read it, and it automatically is returned after the loan period. My local library has a great selection.
Got my PDF of Rebello--thanks! Wondering how that was obtainable, though; is it because that book is not copyrighted? And wonder why it's not copyrighted, anyway?
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Reasonwhy
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:21 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Jodi
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Oh, I see--does it disappear after the loan period?
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PossumPie
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:26 am
- Real Name: Possum Pie
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Copyright doesn't apply to public libraries. As long as they purchase a copy and loan it without cost. If they charged to read a book it wouldn't work. That's why they are "Loaned". You can go to your public library and borrow the newest Stephen King book for free as long as you return it.Reasonwhy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:40 pmPossum,PossumPie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:50 pm I forget where I got it, but you can "borrow" an e-copy from several online libraries. Here is one:
https://archive.org/details/lizzieborde ... e/mode/2up
Borrowing e-books is just like borrowing real books, sign up for an account, find the book, check it out/download it, read it, and it automatically is returned after the loan period. My local library has a great selection.
Got my PDF of Rebello--thanks! Wondering how that was obtainable, though; is it because that book is not copyrighted? And wonder why it's not copyrighted, anyway?
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1573
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Creating opportunity. If she planned ahead, Lizzie could count on Andrew going downtown for a couple hours...9am to dinner time. But could she august 4th? As Lizzie sat in the kitchen around 8:55amish, Andrew approaches her and said that he was not feeling well enough to mail her letter to Emma, and by extension, go downtown at all. But of course he did go, so it feels like a very safe assumption that it was Lizzie who convinced Andrew to go regardless how he felt. Either she was a murderous daughter or an extremely uncaring one (or both). But she successfully got him out of the house and it was game on. I think Abby was dead within 15 minutes of Andrew leaving. So that day was likely a combination of planning ahead and being opportunistic.
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Steve88778
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:32 am
- Real Name: steve
Re: Choreographed or opportunistic? Planned or sudden act of passion?
Lets narrow it down - unless walking around with a hatchet tied around the waist was the style back then you can rule out sudden act of passion.