Another thread in this forum has be evaluating my opinion of Lizzie's general character.
I have come to (for me) a startling conclusion!
I do not see Lizzie as a bad person. I do not think she would have been a bad mother, bad friend, I do not see her as selfish or as a sociopath.
Why?
Do I feel a sorority of some sort with her? Do I somehow feel an affinity? Why do I want her to be innocent?
Perhaps the most important question(s)..... Do I not see Lizzie as a bad person because deep inside I do not see her as a murderer... or do I not see her as a murderer as deep inside I do not see her as a bad person???
Why does Lizzie have to be a bad person and a murderer? Can she be (essentially) a good person even if she swung the hatchet?
Again... foremost in my mind--- Why do I want her to be innocent-- and why might someone else (you?) want her to be guilty???
Lizzie's general character...
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theebmonique
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Kat
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I have discussed this before in the past- the type of questions you raise. Some people believe that if Lizzie was the victim then she was right in what she did (if she killed the Bordens) and was liberated by it.
Either she was the victim or they were the victims. Some think that she was of a more modern ilk, whereby as women, we will not tolerate abuse and applaud Lizzie as taking back her power. This is not something the Victorians encouraged.
I have said that I think Lizzie's major flaw was she felt entitled, and have heard the argument back that she should have felt that way.
But that kind of leaves out, in my mind, the time and the place. We have to go back to old Fall River before we can understand the answer to this question.
If the Bordens were mean, narrow, miserly people, then they could be deemed abusive, undermining Lizzie's sense of self, and stunting her growth. They may have been good candiates for murder in that case.
If the Bordens were just ordinarily thick and obtuse, but not on purpose, then they were true victims.
You need to decide who was the victim, I think.
I believe, maybe not in any politically-correct way, that most victims contributed somehow to their murder. They must have done something, so to speak, to really PI_ _ somebody off.
Anyway, legally Lizzie was culpable- I don't know why that's not acceptable?
Either she was the victim or they were the victims. Some think that she was of a more modern ilk, whereby as women, we will not tolerate abuse and applaud Lizzie as taking back her power. This is not something the Victorians encouraged.
I have said that I think Lizzie's major flaw was she felt entitled, and have heard the argument back that she should have felt that way.
But that kind of leaves out, in my mind, the time and the place. We have to go back to old Fall River before we can understand the answer to this question.
If the Bordens were mean, narrow, miserly people, then they could be deemed abusive, undermining Lizzie's sense of self, and stunting her growth. They may have been good candiates for murder in that case.
If the Bordens were just ordinarily thick and obtuse, but not on purpose, then they were true victims.
You need to decide who was the victim, I think.
I believe, maybe not in any politically-correct way, that most victims contributed somehow to their murder. They must have done something, so to speak, to really PI_ _ somebody off.
Anyway, legally Lizzie was culpable- I don't know why that's not acceptable?
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Angel
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Audrey, I think the reason you feel the way you do is because you yourself are a very caring, gentle soul who sees the good in everyone. I think you probably make a very good and loyal friend. As I read your posts those qualities always seem to be evident. Your family and friends are very lucky to have you.
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Pippi
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Doug
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Society is full of ordinary people who do extraordinary things; those accomplishments can be either "good" or "bad." Lizzie may not have been an evil person but no matter the motivation I think she did something vicious. Her crimes were brutal; she was smart enough to get away with them in the legal sense; and she had the strength of character to keep still about all of it for close to 35 years. To me that is extraordinary!
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doug65oh
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“Perhaps the most important question(s)..... Do I not see Lizzie as a bad person because deep inside I do not see her as a murderer... or do I not see her as a murderer as deep inside I do not see her as a bad person???”
Here Auds, among the questions you raise, are perhaps the two most important. They sit at the pinnacle of importance because each one can apply not only to Lizzie Borden, but almost universally to any defendant, in any case, and any place.
A hundred and more names come to mind, the line stretching perhaps as far back as the infamies seventeenth-century Salem.
Advance forward eighty and a few more years and we stumble upon the case of General Arnold, whose infamy would be so great in the public mind that his own name would become synonymous with “traitor.” And yet right up to the end of that nearly, there were still those who found it almost incomprehensible that Benedict Arnold would have done or could have done such a thing as conspiring to surrender West Point to the British. One among these most notably, we are told, was George Washington himself.
The list goes on and on, right up to our own day – to people like Albert DeSalvo, Jeffrey Dahmer, Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, Lisa Montgomery.
So your questions, as nearly as I am able to see, are, were, or certainly could have been asked in each of these cases and yet more.
Human perception is a queer and sometimes fickle thing. It’s difficult not to think of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar:
“Men at some time are masters of their fates: The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves…”
Here Auds, among the questions you raise, are perhaps the two most important. They sit at the pinnacle of importance because each one can apply not only to Lizzie Borden, but almost universally to any defendant, in any case, and any place.
A hundred and more names come to mind, the line stretching perhaps as far back as the infamies seventeenth-century Salem.
Advance forward eighty and a few more years and we stumble upon the case of General Arnold, whose infamy would be so great in the public mind that his own name would become synonymous with “traitor.” And yet right up to the end of that nearly, there were still those who found it almost incomprehensible that Benedict Arnold would have done or could have done such a thing as conspiring to surrender West Point to the British. One among these most notably, we are told, was George Washington himself.
The list goes on and on, right up to our own day – to people like Albert DeSalvo, Jeffrey Dahmer, Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, Lisa Montgomery.
So your questions, as nearly as I am able to see, are, were, or certainly could have been asked in each of these cases and yet more.
Human perception is a queer and sometimes fickle thing. It’s difficult not to think of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar:
“Men at some time are masters of their fates: The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves…”
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Allen
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I do not want to misunderstand your meaning Kat. Are you saying that you think that it is partly the victims fault they were murdered?Kat @ Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:54 am wrote: I believe, maybe not in any politically-correct way, that most victims contributed somehow to their murder. They must have done something, so to speak, to really PI_ _ somebody off.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Kat
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To me, if a murder is within a family or friends sphere, which most murders are- discounting serial killings- then in a way, there was something about the victim that needed killing, in the view of the murderer.
Even sometimes through a serial killers eyes, like Kemper, a family member was the real target. He's said that if he had only killed his mother after his grandparents, all the stranger college girls might still be alive.
There are also the Menedez brothers- there was some abuse of some kind to the brothers for those parents to have been so thoroughly killed.
I think, in the mind of the familial murderer, there is this constant irritation, that builds up, becomes beyond something controllable, and in someone with poor impulse control, or someone who has always gotten away with acting out, murder becomes a choice- an alternative- rather than just walking away or moving away or cutting ties to this person. As I said- the victim usually did something that really pissed someone off- but it is in the perception of the offender- but that is where it counts, anyway, doesn't it?
Even sometimes through a serial killers eyes, like Kemper, a family member was the real target. He's said that if he had only killed his mother after his grandparents, all the stranger college girls might still be alive.
There are also the Menedez brothers- there was some abuse of some kind to the brothers for those parents to have been so thoroughly killed.
I think, in the mind of the familial murderer, there is this constant irritation, that builds up, becomes beyond something controllable, and in someone with poor impulse control, or someone who has always gotten away with acting out, murder becomes a choice- an alternative- rather than just walking away or moving away or cutting ties to this person. As I said- the victim usually did something that really pissed someone off- but it is in the perception of the offender- but that is where it counts, anyway, doesn't it?
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terrie
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I don't have much of a grasp on Lizzie's personality as a good or bad person, it's just too murky from over 100 years away to me. I do know from my own work that criminals and sociopaths can (and often do) form intense alliances with animals and weep freely over animal causes, while being perfectly capable of knifing a human being with little or no regards or remorse. One antisocial told me that it is because ".. animals and babies don't judge me or care what I do..."
I don't know if I would regard Lizzie as a pure antisocial, though... her treatment of her staff seems too kind for that. She does seem narcissitic... but that is Monday morning quarterbacking.
Has anyone read the book Women Who Kill by Ann Jones? It is a tabloidy title, but the book is earnest and well researched... It is one of those books I keep in the car in case I have to wait a while at the doctor or have lunch on my own. I remember Jones saying alot about the general pressures on women of Lizzie's time (and I believe she covers the Borden case... I will have to double check)... anyway, by the time Jones was done counting up the weight and pressure of the bustles and girdles and skirts and petticoats and the isolation and the second class status and the ennui and the thousand strangling restrictions in clothing and in behavior, I was tempted to axe a few people myself ... anything to get some air.
Just kidding :-)
But I think Jones does a great job of presenting the background a woman like Lizzie was in... and giving insight into the mixed feelings, fears, and resentments she must have had. Lizzie was strong willed -- I think Nancie called it Yankee stubbornness -- and it couldn 't have been easy for her to be stifled year after year with little hope of change in sight. I can remember times (as a teen) of hitting my pillow and sobbing over restrictions and plan changes that I didn't control... for Lizzie, what was teen angst for me must have been daily life years and years... being ruled by others with no end in sight... I can see how it would boil over.
I don't know if I would regard Lizzie as a pure antisocial, though... her treatment of her staff seems too kind for that. She does seem narcissitic... but that is Monday morning quarterbacking.
Has anyone read the book Women Who Kill by Ann Jones? It is a tabloidy title, but the book is earnest and well researched... It is one of those books I keep in the car in case I have to wait a while at the doctor or have lunch on my own. I remember Jones saying alot about the general pressures on women of Lizzie's time (and I believe she covers the Borden case... I will have to double check)... anyway, by the time Jones was done counting up the weight and pressure of the bustles and girdles and skirts and petticoats and the isolation and the second class status and the ennui and the thousand strangling restrictions in clothing and in behavior, I was tempted to axe a few people myself ... anything to get some air.
Just kidding :-)
But I think Jones does a great job of presenting the background a woman like Lizzie was in... and giving insight into the mixed feelings, fears, and resentments she must have had. Lizzie was strong willed -- I think Nancie called it Yankee stubbornness -- and it couldn 't have been easy for her to be stifled year after year with little hope of change in sight. I can remember times (as a teen) of hitting my pillow and sobbing over restrictions and plan changes that I didn't control... for Lizzie, what was teen angst for me must have been daily life years and years... being ruled by others with no end in sight... I can see how it would boil over.
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Nancie
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Kat said "poor impulse control" that got me to thinking. If it is 1892 or 2005, we are all the same
really. The young girls now take Prozac or other
things to get through... Life is tough, it is not for wimps! I still don't think Lizzie suffered from depression or epilepsy or anything. But I think she
took her sitution into her own hands and simply did
something about it. (hiring someone) No need for
drugs, alcohol or prozac, just take care of the problem and be done with it!
really. The young girls now take Prozac or other
things to get through... Life is tough, it is not for wimps! I still don't think Lizzie suffered from depression or epilepsy or anything. But I think she
took her sitution into her own hands and simply did
something about it. (hiring someone) No need for
drugs, alcohol or prozac, just take care of the problem and be done with it!
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Pippi
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"But I think she took her sitution into her own hands and simply did something about it. (hiring someone) No need for
drugs, alcohol or prozac, just take care of the problem and be done with it!"
The hatchet instead of prozac, it SOUNDS more gratifying, at first BUT,...whatever she did or didn't do, if involved, it sure seemed to make life more difficult...or did it? The world may never know..... If I had a penny for every time someone thought or posted "I wonder if she had it to do over again knowing the result, would she have done it?" I could BUY Maplecroft I know...
To hold the silence will forever make me wonder...did she find her complicated life at Maplecroft more enjoyable than her life on 2nd street? Perhaps the answer is yes...scary
drugs, alcohol or prozac, just take care of the problem and be done with it!"
The hatchet instead of prozac, it SOUNDS more gratifying, at first BUT,...whatever she did or didn't do, if involved, it sure seemed to make life more difficult...or did it? The world may never know..... If I had a penny for every time someone thought or posted "I wonder if she had it to do over again knowing the result, would she have done it?" I could BUY Maplecroft I know...
To hold the silence will forever make me wonder...did she find her complicated life at Maplecroft more enjoyable than her life on 2nd street? Perhaps the answer is yes...scary
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Susan
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Yes, Terrie, I own Ann Jones' book, I think its a great addition to anyone's crime library for its coverage of Lizzie as well as all the others. I think you have hit on something with that "teen angst", I have always felt that Lizzie and Emma may have carried that with them into their adult lives. They were kept like children, dependent on Andrew for almost everything.Has anyone read the book Women Who Kill by Ann Jones? It is a tabloidy title, but the book is earnest and well researched...
I know it wasn't something done by women of their social class, but, I've always wondered if Emma and Lizzie had pooled their money and left home, could they have lived comfortably off the interest and not had to work? It would have given them some measure of control over their lives though they probably would have been cut out of Andrew's will for good. I guess it was just one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't sort of situations.
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terrie
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Hmm... I do think that Emma and Lizzie could have lived well off of their monies, if they had helped one another. I can imagine Lizzie having the nerve to dare do such a thing, maybe -- but not Emma by any means. Emma comes off as sooooo bound by her time, so resigned to her place. Lincoln seems to see Emma as pretty shrewd with money, though, doubling her money before her death through investments outside of Fall River. Maybe she and Lizzie could have pooled their money, made it grow, and done well as a team... but that was not to be.
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Kat
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Weren't the girls only about 100,000 apart in the money which remained?
Well here iis the info I just looked up in Rebello, pgs. 341 & 349. I thought I would check.
Emma was accounted at $447,000 (round numbers-me)
Lizzie was accounted at $348,000 (ditto above)
Charles C. Cook apparently was the custodian of Emma's and Lizzie's real estate which came to them from Andrew. (pg. 341 & 348). I believe Emma sold her share of the A.J.Borden building, which went against Lizzie. It looks like, if both inherited in the nature of $200,000 that Emma did double hers besides using it.
Actually, after they were orphans, Emma was the one who did move away and established herself in other cities. We think of Lizzie having this courage, but Emma is the one who did it- going to Providence and New Hampshire, right?
Well here iis the info I just looked up in Rebello, pgs. 341 & 349. I thought I would check.
Emma was accounted at $447,000 (round numbers-me)
Lizzie was accounted at $348,000 (ditto above)
Charles C. Cook apparently was the custodian of Emma's and Lizzie's real estate which came to them from Andrew. (pg. 341 & 348). I believe Emma sold her share of the A.J.Borden building, which went against Lizzie. It looks like, if both inherited in the nature of $200,000 that Emma did double hers besides using it.
Actually, after they were orphans, Emma was the one who did move away and established herself in other cities. We think of Lizzie having this courage, but Emma is the one who did it- going to Providence and New Hampshire, right?
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doug65oh
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You know, that's true. It's interesting how much of a "modern" woman Emma really was given the constraints of the day. Her philosophy after the murder/trial etc. seems to have been along the lines of a remark by Winston Churchill: "This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure."
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Kat
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I think Emma wanted, after the murders, to just live peaceably. To take her flowers to her father's grave on Memorial Day and not be bothered by gossip and Lizzie's antics.
I guess she showed some strength to get Lizzie to sign that agreement to pay her her share of the use of the French Street property they jointly owned (that could have had deadly consequences...), leave her sister and move out!
Then live away in Providence near or with relatives, and then much farther away to New Hampshire, with strangers?
I wonder how Emma found Annie Connor? Was it a friend of a friend, or an ad in a newspaper?
It might be that Emma, once she made up her mind, was hard to budge? Was she censorius of Lizzie- did she show her disapproval of her sister's lifestyle? Or did they just never really see eye to eye on anything and finally realized it? Why did Lizzie stay?
It makes Emma look strong and stubborn, Lizzie look more like the one who was *done to*, and obstinate.
I guess she showed some strength to get Lizzie to sign that agreement to pay her her share of the use of the French Street property they jointly owned (that could have had deadly consequences...), leave her sister and move out!
Then live away in Providence near or with relatives, and then much farther away to New Hampshire, with strangers?
I wonder how Emma found Annie Connor? Was it a friend of a friend, or an ad in a newspaper?
It might be that Emma, once she made up her mind, was hard to budge? Was she censorius of Lizzie- did she show her disapproval of her sister's lifestyle? Or did they just never really see eye to eye on anything and finally realized it? Why did Lizzie stay?
It makes Emma look strong and stubborn, Lizzie look more like the one who was *done to*, and obstinate.
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snokkums
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lizzie a good person
It is possible that she was a good person. People have a tendancy to do some very bad things. She might have just flipped out when she was thinking about her stepmother. She didin't like her step mother at all. She might have just killed in a fit of anger.
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Nancie
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Sisters: I have often thought of that with Lizzie and
Emma. Sisters are a pretty strong bond and for them to lose each other (especially since they were all the family they had) is a very emotional break. They must have both been heartbroken over the split. That Yankee Pride again, whatever it was, neither one budged ONE INCH.
Emma. Sisters are a pretty strong bond and for them to lose each other (especially since they were all the family they had) is a very emotional break. They must have both been heartbroken over the split. That Yankee Pride again, whatever it was, neither one budged ONE INCH.
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Kat
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Yes, there's something about that...
Try this article. I just posted the link at Stay To Tea, subject "The Heiress."
It really describes the women who rebelled in these American Victorian days. At least in Literature.
http://www.trinity.edu/org/tricksters/T ... barzun.htm
Try this article. I just posted the link at Stay To Tea, subject "The Heiress."
It really describes the women who rebelled in these American Victorian days. At least in Literature.
http://www.trinity.edu/org/tricksters/T ... barzun.htm
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snokkums
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It is very possible that she was a good person. Good people sometimes can do some very bad things. Thats the reason they have a concience. They are truly sorry for what they did, once they think about what they did.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.