Ashamed of Uncle John?

[Harry]

One of the mysteries to me has always been the relationship between Lizzie and her uncle John Morse.

She avoids seeing him on the 3rd by going straight to her room after coming from Alice Russell's.

She doesn't come down to breakfast on the morning of the 4th until after Morse has left.

I believe Morse said that on his previous visit to the house in July he did not see Lizzie.

Emma maintained contact with Morse by letter and Morse said he couldn't ever remember receiving a letter from Lizzie.

All part of some conspiracy to stay apart publicly while acting in concert in private? Or did Lizzie just not like him? His rather vagabond life style, his one suit wardrobe and his countryfied ways certainly wouldn't appeal to her. How could she explain him to her friends who she wanted to impress?

Any thoughts?

[Allen]

I have always found something fishy about her avoiding uncle John. Her answers during the inquest make it clear that she was making a point not to have contact with him during his visit if at all possible. It's possible she was ashamed of him. Maybe he reminded her too much of her father with his frugal ways, and it rubbed her the wrong way? I have thought about the rumors, and there was something mentioned in one of the papers by a member of the Borden family, that she was a little "too fond" of uncle John. I do not see any other evidence of it. Maybe he committed some serious offense, such as Andrew did by putting the half house in Abby's name. I have so many ideas on it I do not know where to start.

[Audrey]

If I had an uncle who thought nothing of arriving to spend the night sans toothbrush and a change of clothing and made a habit of wearing the same shirt until it was so soiled he threw it away and replaced it with a new one... I would avoid him too.

(In this day and age I would see his name on the caller ID and not pick up the phone.)

If I came home and found him in my salon.... I would sneak up the front stairs and avoid him at breakfast as well.

Most families have an "Uncle John" and most of us would avoid him if we could.

[Kat]

I can't help thinking there might have been a recent falling-out. Lizzie's habit of shunning people who she is annoyed with seems like what she is attempting here. After all, once she was acquitted, we don't hear of any more to do with Uncle John and the girls- and he certainly left them out of his will.

However, as I think you, Harry, have pointed out in another post/topic, the newspapers have Morse bringing Lizzie some meals in jail, but waiting in the hall while she finished. Not with her, but outside, away from her?

Maybe he was trying to make ammends, but she didn't give in one inch?

He did leave the area in December to head back to Iowa, before Christmas for gosh sakes, leaving those poor orphaned girls alone. He had been around back east for 2 years by then, at least, hadn't he- why leave during the girl's first Christmas alone, while Lizzie was in jail?

[Allen]

Maybe he left because he suspected Lizzie was guilty? Maybe it was too uncomfortable for him to stay having these feelings about her, especially when she had made it clear she wanted nothing to do with him. He went back to where he could get back some semblance of a normalcy and privacy. This is just an opinion. My opinion about uncle John tends to change alot.

[Susan]

That is a tough one, why Lizzie avoided or was perceived to avoid Uncle John. For the reasons stated so far, I can totally see why Lizzie would steer clear of him. Could it have been also Lizzie's perception that Uncle John was in cahoots with Andrew and Abby? That he was family and went behind her back to possibly aid them in doing things that she felt were detrimental to her future. Or, was it that Lizzie and John were thick as thieves, scheming and planning the elder Bordens demise and she didn't want anyone to know. They would have had ample opportunity to speak once everyone went to bed, he was right across the hall from her and Emma wasn't there to overhear or interfere. I can't recall which author it was, probably Lincoln knowing my luck, that put forth the idea that every time Uncle John came to visit, all hell broke loose. Might be interesting to check into and see if there was any truth to that.

[Audrey]

Could Lizzie have had a "blood is thicker than water" attitude? If so---she may have felt that John owed his loyalties to her and not A&A.

It is interesting to note that most of us call him "Uncle" versus just plain John. I imagine this is because this is how he was described in most of the writings-- But it is still interesting.

[Allen]

Could Lizzie have had a "blood is thicker than water" attitude? If so---she may have felt that John owed his loyalties to her and not A&A.

I can see where this would be possible Audrey. I think it's possible he committed some offense in Lizzie's eyes, such as Andrew did by putting the half house in Abby's name. Something she never really forgave either of them for. Even after Andrew had tried to smooth it over by giving Emma and Lizzie each a half house of their own. "How could father have given property to that woman? What about us? Shouldn't we come first?" I think it can be shown that was pretty much Lizzie's attitude. She was petty and self centered. So if she perceived Uncle John as siding against her with Andrew and Abby, well....just as an example look at the pains she took to avoid taking meals with her parents.

[Miller]

There are many theories about incest between Andrew and Lizzie but what if it were Morse? When Emma went away to a seminary, wasn't that about the time Morse lived there for a year and Lizzie was a young teenager? Maybe she never confided to Emma about the abuse so Emma remained friendly with Morse, but Lizzie avoided him.

[Kat]

Emma went away c. 1865, 1869. Morse came to stay in 1875.
You can check timeline info at:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... 9-1892.htm

I'm more of the opinion lately that Lizzie was shunning him for perceived transgressions over his talks with Andrew, a will, money, etc. That since Morse was Andrew's finacial sounding board at times, that Lizzie thinks Morse let her down in some way- maybe by not telling her something Andrew had told him.
They were similar, I hear, and being of a similar age they might have the same opinion of girls as lesser to males.

Also, when I say "Uncle John", I mean to differentiate and bring attention to the fact that there was another Uncle living in Fall River who is never mentioned.

[stuartwsa]

Of course, even the slightest hint of Uncle John aiding Abby in any way would most likely be considered by Lizzie to be the ultimate slap in the face. Imagine, Sarah Morse's brother involved in anything that benefits her "replacement"!

[Audrey]

Would you all say Lizzie was a "girlie-girl" or more of a "Tom-Boy"??

[Miller]

I think she was more "girlie girl" but not dainty or delicate. She's been described as "masculine" in features but always as a "lady" in the way she carried herself.

[Allen]

As bold and outspoken as she is said to be, speaking her mind as she wished, I have always pictured her as more of a "tom boy" type for some reason. I have never pictured her as the "girlie girl" feminine type. I consider "girlie girls" as soft spoken, well mannered, and demure.

[Audrey]

I just think deep down-- she was repulsed by him. He had to have been an embarrassment to her.

He had to have smelled... Looked unclean and his teeth must have been dreadful. Andrew cleaned his teeth.... But UJ traveled about with no tooth brush. (Of course as a Orthodontist's wife this grosses me out immensely!)

[Allen]

Do you all think there is any other evidence, other than what was said in the one newspaper article about her being "too fond" of him, to suggest any kind of incest going on between John Morse and Lizzie?

[Doug]

When Lizzie returned home from visiting Alice Russell on the evening of August 3 there were three people (Uncle John, Abby, and Andrew) in the sitting room. Lizzie may have wanted to avoid seeing or speaking to all of them.

I, too, tend to think that any coolness on Lizzie's part toward John Morse prior to the murders was the result of Lizzie perceiving John to be somehow cooperating with Andrew and Abby in financial dealings that could have proven detrimental to Lizzie and Emma. I don't believe that John Morse conspired with Lizzie to murder Abby and Andrew. My guess is that Uncle John figured out what had happened in fairly short order after the killings and for reasons unknown decided not to tell all he knew or suspected about the circumstances of the murders.

[Harry]

I've been leaning more and more that way, Auds. And maybe that's all there was to it. He certainly wasn't the "Hill" type which Lizzie allegedly aspired to.
Her avoidance of him just may have been a subtle hint that his presence was not appreciated by her.

Emma who didn't have Lizzie's social ambitions seemed quite willing to accept him as he was. Of course Emma was older than Lizzie and knew their mother and was probably more comfortable with the connection to Uncle John.

[Doug]

The incest theories surrounding the Borden case seem based on speculation. There is no real evidence. It is another of the Borden questions that will never be answered.

[Audrey]

Emma who didn't have Lizzie's social ambitions seemed quite willing to accept him as he was. Of course Emma was older than Lizzie and knew their mother and was probably more comfortable with the connection to Uncle John.

I also wonder if Emma was more accepting of his unkempt appearance as she may have acted more in the capacity of nurse to her mother? I have known people who have worked with the elderly and the ill as nurses or nurses aids and they are not usually as turned off by things that may upset others. Much of this is probably due to their becoming accustomed to it, but I also think it has a great deal to do with their personality.

I also think people who tend to be selfish are less tolerant of what they perceive as "gross" in others. My sister in law is a good example. I love her-- but she is a prissy, stuck up woman who refused to clip her husband's toe nails when he was in a 3/4 body cast after a snowmobile accident. I was truly disgusted with her and told her so. She was actually shocked that I was put out with her and could not believe anyone would blame her for it--- Of course I was Emma to her Lizzie in this case and trimmed the poor man's nails for him. Of course-- having had 6 children to care for I was also desensitized to such things. Maybe Emma was the same since she helped with Lizzie's cares?

[Audrey]

The incest theories surrounding the Borden case seem based on speculation. There is no real evidence. It is another of the Borden questions that will never be answered.

And wild speculation at that!

It is a wonder Lizzie had any time to go to the WCTU or poison shopping as many men (and later women) as she had to "tend to"

[theebmonique]

OK...maybe I am starting to get over my silly idea that there was some kind of 'plan' between Lizzie, Uncle John, Emma...and maybe even Bridget ? I like what is being said about Lizzie's relationship...or lack there of with Uncle John. Stuartwsa, I was particularly intrigued by what you said:

Of course, even the slightest hint of Uncle John aiding Abby in any way would most likely be considered by Lizzie to be the ultimate slap in the face. Imagine, Sarah Morse's brother involved in anything that benefits her "replacement"!

Tracy...

[Kat]

I think the man Morse's hygiene is a bit dramatized here as smelly etc.
The Davis family was quoted in the papers as believing Morse would return the next day.
He himself said he could have caught the 6 o'clock (c. 6 pm) train back that very Wednesday that he came. If he only expected to be gone overnight, maximum, that doesn't automatically mean he's a slob because he didn't bring a toothbrush or clean shirt. It almost goes to show that he didn't expect anything to happen, else he might have brought a bag.
We don't know that he didn't use some type of toothbrush which he carried in his pocket.

There was one news item that said he always wore the same suit. Maybe he had a dozen suits which looked exactly the same, like Matlock?

Edit here: I also don't discount that such an eccentric man was a liability in Lizzie's eyes to any of her social aspirations. I mean, he was called a horse trader for gosh sakes, at least in the east, where they say he wasn't well-known.