Tomorrow, tomorrow, I'll kill them tomorrow

[Harry]

This assumes Lizzie as the murderer.

What are your thoughts as to whether Lizzie knew on Wednesday night that she would kill her father and stepmother the next day.

It's just so hard to imagine a person going to bed at night knowing they are going to kill two people the next day.

[Audrey]

Don't you think she would have had to have psyched herself up for it?

[Kat]

I think it's possible that all of Wednesday she was gearing up for it.
The attempt to buy poison, the visit to Alice, the neglect of her uncle, Emma gone, police out of town.
She could have known as early as Tuesday if she did attempt to poison the old folks.
They would at least be debilitated, easier to kill...

[Susan]

I guess that would work also if Lizzie hired someone to do the killings, she would still know that the elder Bordens would die tomorrow. It makes me wonder about Lizzie's visit with Alice. Was it an elaborate set-up for the murders? Father has enemies, we think we've been poisoned, we've been robbed, they might burn down the house, I feel like something will happen and then it did. Or, was it more like Lincoln supposed, that it was a veiled cry for help from Lizzie, much like a suicide will drop hints that they are planning to do themselves in, was Lizzie dropping hints to Alice that she might do something?

[Harry]

Yes, she would definitely have to psych herself up before the deeds. This is complicated by the time difference between the acts. But if Masterton's theory of a non-existent gap between the murders is accepted then she would not have had to re-psych herself for the second murder.

The visit to Alice Russell does offer up possible reasons for the murders but seems to work both for and against Lizzie.

Perhaps she had long planned it but the circumstances on the morning of the 4th presented the ideal time.

I believe it was Knowlton who said that if he knew what was discussed in the sitting room the night before he would know the solution to the case. We can only guess what Lizzie may or may not have heard of that conversation.

[stuartwsa]

It would seem to me that if Lizzie were planning the murders (or knew about the plans), she would tried to be seen as being solicitous to both Andrew and Abby. Not too much so, as to be seen as out of character, but enough to throw suspicion off herself.

[Susan]

Yes, didn't Lizzie do just that directly before the murders? The night Andrew and Abby were sick and heaving their guts out, Lizzie apparently stepped to the door and asked them if there was anything she could do. Can't recall where I read it, but, I believe it was Bridget who said when Abby was sick in the past, neither of the girls went in to check on her at all.

Lizzie and Emma rarely came down to meals, Lizzie ate with the elder Bordens a few times before Uncle John showed. There may be more examples that others might come up with, I can't think of any more right now.

[Smudgeman]

I am sure Lizzie had to have thought about it long before she did it if she did it. Maybe the moment was perfect afterall, and she carried out the deed at the most opportune time. I do think she needed to tell somebody that maybe something was gonna happen, and hinted to that with Alice. She was not going to kill without thinking through the possible problems that may arise?

[Robert Harry]

Harry, I've had exactly the same thought. How could Lizzie have slept knowing that she was going to kill on the morrow (or, even if she did not do it but had prior knowledge), wouldn't the night have seemed endless with anxiety, nervousness, plotting, rehearsing, planning, trying to cover every single possibility in her mind? Since I have now swung back to thinking Lizzie did it, I can only surmise that she had one hell of a fitfull night and didn't sleep at all, or she truly was a sociopath and slept just fine. But then, knowing how she had many a sleepless night in prison, maybe our Lizzie just bit the bullet and suffered through the night and came out of it none the worse for the wear physically. BTW, I have always thought that her visit to Alice with the premonitions was integral to the murders.

[john]

I have to ask this - do you really believe, Harry, that Lizzie did the crimes or are you trying to promote conversation?

[Harry]

I'm about 80% convinced she did it.

As for trying to promote conversation and discussion, that's the purpose of the forum.

[Kat]

Where's that "Never Mind What Harry Does" motto when we need it?

Ahem... I'm thinking that's a yes to Susan and Stuart that Lizzie did do things out of character that week. She did eat with the family I think Tuesday and definitely Wednesday. Some may think her Wednesday showing at meals was to garner an alibi for the Smith's Drug Store incident.
She thought she saw a man loitering (prowler) that week but didn't tell Andrew- though she had before.
She may have stayed up all night and written her letter to Emma. I would Love to have seen that letter!
Anyway, Andrew had been ill and said he didn't think he'd go to the post office that day but Lizzie gave him a letter and it may be the catalyst which got him out of the house. (Not that her writing Emma was extra-ordinary).

[Kat]

I'm thinking of these kids who kill and they do give hints beforehand, usually. BUt they also leak info, after.
But also, they say that a guilty man sleeps better than an innocent one, at least in jail after an arrest and interrogation..(That never quite made sense to me but I accept it).

[FairhavenGuy]

I've always thought the visit to Alice was both a setup for the events to follow and also perhaps a cry for help. It is certainly another of the big coincidences in the case that Lizzie brings up these things the day before the murders.

She could very well have been awake all night, and her lack of much reaction the next day could be from exhaustion.

By the way, is there really any evidence except from Lizzie herself as to what time she came home Wednesday night? Morse doesn't mention hearing her come in does he? Does Alice give a specific time when Lizzie left her house? (Which still wouldn't really tell us when she got home anyway.)




And john:

[Audrey]

Not to mention-- If she did do it the adrenalin fall after the rush would have exhausted her....

[Harry]

By the way, is there really any evidence except from Lizzie herself as to what time she came home Wednesday night? Morse doesn't mention hearing her come in does he? Does Alice give a specific time when Lizzie left her house? (Which still wouldn't really tell us when she got home anyway.)

Morse testified at the Preliminary, page 238:

"Q. Did you see the defendant, Miss Lizzie Borden when you got home that night about quarter of nine?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her at all?
A. I did not see her from the time I came until the time of the tragedy.
Q. You did not see her at all until after they were killed?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you hear her that night?
A. Yes, I heard her come in, or what I supposed to be her.
Q. You heard somebody come in?
A. Yes, and shut the door, and go up the front stairs.
Q. What time of night was that?
A. Somewhere about quarter past nine, or 20 minutes."

Then on cross-examination, page 249:

"Q. Which way were you facing, towards the east or the west?
A. I think my face was north.
Q. So that you could not see into the front hall at all?
A. I could not from where I sat.
Q. You simply heard somebody come in, and go upstairs?
A. That is all.
Q. Did you hear somebody in the room overhead?
A. I heard somebody after that.
Q. That was about quarter past nine, I understand you to say, as near as you can calculate?
A. Yes Sir."

Alice Russell testified at the trial, page 374:

"Q. Now speak louder; I find difficulty in hearing you. About how long did she stay with you, Miss Russell, that night?
A. I think she went at nine, or five minutes after. That is as near as I know."

So the time gap from Alice's to 92 Second is 10 to 20 minutes. That's not that far a walk but since all these times are guesses it doesn't appear too far off.

[Kat]

Thanks Har! I like to think of the time gap as suspicious.
Leaving around 9, getting in the door about 9:20. In that case we can postulate a meeting of some kind, hurridly met, for 10 minutes or so.
Or Lizzie loitering outside the sitting room windows, listening- hearing the words which left her pacing all night? Writing her sister? Deciding, finally, for sure, to kill?

[FairhavenGuy]

Thanks, Harry.

I don't have the Preliminary, because I think that's the one we have to pay for, right? (Yes. . . we do have hot running water and a flush toilet. . .)

I was pretty sure Alice had said Lizzie left about nine, but not about Morse putting her arrival at 9:15 to 9:20. Did he check his watch?

[Kat]

9:20 is after dark, do you think, August 3rd, 1892?
After Lizzie has seen these shadowy men and loiterers you'd think she'd try to get home before dark.
I think it hurts Lizzie for Morse to say how late she was back.
Of course, he was pretty late himself, for not getting anything done in Swansea, except pick up some eggs.
He took somewhere along the lines of 5 hours.

[bullet43]

Lizzie stole to see if she could get away with it, she lied in her tesimony about not being at the drug store to buy poison. She had thought about this for some time but had to know when the right time would be.They would have died from poisoning if it had been sold to her.SHE WAS ANGRY THAT SHE DIDN'T GET THAT POISON! So she did the next thing she could think of-to her maybe it wasn't that bad of thing to do?
Alot of longstanding hate that had built up over time & she killed thinking she would get away with it.I think she thought it thru. I don't trust people who lie or steal.that tells me alot about their character.

[bullet43]

I just remembered-on the travel channel it told of Lizzie's distant relatives,about a son that killed his grandmother-stabbed her in the stomach & then set her on fire so they wouldn't know who did it.They found out years later & dug her up out of the grave because someone had a visit from her spirit letting this person know what really happened to her body.they did an autopsy & found that she had been stabbed & the fire was a cover-up to make people think she fell asleep by the fireplace.This was a decendant of Lizzie.Obviously Matricide & Patricide run in that blood line.

[FairhavenGuy]

You must have misheard about a "descendant of Lizzie." Neither Lizzie nor Emma had children. They were the end of Andrew's line.

Maybe another sort of relation, but not a descendant, certainly.

[Kat]

Yes I think that story is on a genealogical web-site- a roots site, maybe?
Good point FHG.

[bullet43]

Yes! Lizzie's Family tree!