Does anyone know what the rift between Lizzie, her sister, and her stepmom was? I remember reading somewhere that at one time they did get along, then it changed. Does anyone know why?Robin
What was the rift between Lizzie and her step mom
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snokkums
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What was the rift between Lizzie and her step mom
Does anyone know what the rift between Lizzie, her sister, and her stepmom was? I remember reading somewhere that at one time they did get along, then it changed. Does anyone know why?Robin
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Allen
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The rift was caused by Andrew buying a half house and putting it in Abby's name. The two daughters felt slighted, I suppose, and this caused hard feelings.
page 50-51 of Lizzie's inquest testimony:
Q. Have you, within six months, had any words with her?
A. No sir.
Q. Within a year?
A. No sir.
Q. Within two years?
A. I think not.
Q. When last that you know of?
A. About five years ago.
Q. What about?
A. Her stepsister, half-sister.
Q. What name?
A. Her name now is Mrs. George W. Whitehead.
Q. Nothing more than hard words?
A. No sir, they were not hard words; it was simply a difference of opinion.
Q. You have been on pleasant terms with your stepmother since then?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Cordial?
A. It depends upon one's idea of cordiality, perhaps.
Q. According to your idea of cordiality?
A. Quite so.
Q. What do you mean by "quite so"?
A. Quite cordial. I do not mean the dearest of friends in the world, but very kindly feelings, and pleasant. I do not know how to answer you any better than that.
Q. You did not regard her as your mother?
A. Not exactly, no; although she came here when I was very young.
Q. Were your relations towards her that of daughter and mother?
A. In some ways it was, and in some it was not.
Q. In what ways was it?
A. I decline to answer.
Q. Why?
A. Because I don't know how to answer it.
Q. In what ways was it not?
A. I did not call her mother.
Q. What name did she go by?
A. Mrs. Borden.
Q. When did you begin to call her Mrs. Borden?
A. I should think five or six years ago.
Q. Before that time you had called her mother?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What led to the change?
A. The affair with her stepsister.
Q. So that the affair was serious enough to have you change from calling her mother, do you mean?
A. I did not choose to call her mother.
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page 112+ of Emma's inquest testimony:
Q. Were the relations between you and your stepmother cordial?
A.I don't know how to answer that. We always spoke.
Q.That might be, and not be at all cordial.
A. Well, perhaps I should no then.
Q.Were the relations between your sister Lizzie and your mother, what you would call cordial?
A.I think more than they were with me.
Q.Somewhat more than they were with you, but not entirely so,you mean perhaps? I do not want to lead you at all. I judged from you answer you mean that, or don't you mean that? You say somewhat more than your relations were,do you mean they were entirely cordial between your step mother and your sister Lizzie?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell me the cause of the lack of cordiality between you and your mother, or was it not any specific thing?
A. Well, we felt she was not interested in us, and at one time father gave her some property, and we felt we ought to have some too; and he afterwards gave us some.
Q. That, however, did not heal the breach, whatever breach there was? The giving the property to you did not entirely heal the feeling?
A.No sir.
Q.That was sometime ago?
A.Yes Sir, sometime ago.
Q.How long after he gave the property that he did give to your step mother, was it before he gave some property to you and Lizzie?
A.Well, not very long.
Q.He did it because you and Lizzie claimed that he ought to do it I suppose? That is, you put in a claim that he should do it?
A.No sir we did not.
Q.How then, did he happen to?
A.A friend came to us, and told us that they thought they head him say that he thought of giving us the homestead on Ferry street, and advised us to ask for it.
page 50-51 of Lizzie's inquest testimony:
Q. Have you, within six months, had any words with her?
A. No sir.
Q. Within a year?
A. No sir.
Q. Within two years?
A. I think not.
Q. When last that you know of?
A. About five years ago.
Q. What about?
A. Her stepsister, half-sister.
Q. What name?
A. Her name now is Mrs. George W. Whitehead.
Q. Nothing more than hard words?
A. No sir, they were not hard words; it was simply a difference of opinion.
Q. You have been on pleasant terms with your stepmother since then?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Cordial?
A. It depends upon one's idea of cordiality, perhaps.
Q. According to your idea of cordiality?
A. Quite so.
Q. What do you mean by "quite so"?
A. Quite cordial. I do not mean the dearest of friends in the world, but very kindly feelings, and pleasant. I do not know how to answer you any better than that.
Q. You did not regard her as your mother?
A. Not exactly, no; although she came here when I was very young.
Q. Were your relations towards her that of daughter and mother?
A. In some ways it was, and in some it was not.
Q. In what ways was it?
A. I decline to answer.
Q. Why?
A. Because I don't know how to answer it.
Q. In what ways was it not?
A. I did not call her mother.
Q. What name did she go by?
A. Mrs. Borden.
Q. When did you begin to call her Mrs. Borden?
A. I should think five or six years ago.
Q. Before that time you had called her mother?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What led to the change?
A. The affair with her stepsister.
Q. So that the affair was serious enough to have you change from calling her mother, do you mean?
A. I did not choose to call her mother.
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page 112+ of Emma's inquest testimony:
Q. Were the relations between you and your stepmother cordial?
A.I don't know how to answer that. We always spoke.
Q.That might be, and not be at all cordial.
A. Well, perhaps I should no then.
Q.Were the relations between your sister Lizzie and your mother, what you would call cordial?
A.I think more than they were with me.
Q.Somewhat more than they were with you, but not entirely so,you mean perhaps? I do not want to lead you at all. I judged from you answer you mean that, or don't you mean that? You say somewhat more than your relations were,do you mean they were entirely cordial between your step mother and your sister Lizzie?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell me the cause of the lack of cordiality between you and your mother, or was it not any specific thing?
A. Well, we felt she was not interested in us, and at one time father gave her some property, and we felt we ought to have some too; and he afterwards gave us some.
Q. That, however, did not heal the breach, whatever breach there was? The giving the property to you did not entirely heal the feeling?
A.No sir.
Q.That was sometime ago?
A.Yes Sir, sometime ago.
Q.How long after he gave the property that he did give to your step mother, was it before he gave some property to you and Lizzie?
A.Well, not very long.
Q.He did it because you and Lizzie claimed that he ought to do it I suppose? That is, you put in a claim that he should do it?
A.No sir we did not.
Q.How then, did he happen to?
A.A friend came to us, and told us that they thought they head him say that he thought of giving us the homestead on Ferry street, and advised us to ask for it.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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john
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hi robin
there was never much evidence of a rift. mostly hearsay. they were all gettin by.
the things that those looking into the crime bring up, such as the house stated above, are really minor money matters but they could be precursors of something big. rumor was that andrew would write a will and leave emma and lizzie on the outside. there is no evidence of this.
there is only like one police investigation in over twenty years at the residence, and that thought to be internal.
if there was lots of tension, i would think they would all be fighting, but there is no evidence of that.
so it comes down to who do you believe?
it doesn't sound to me that lizzie had a problem with her stepmother, but that emma had more of a problem. i don't really see that either had a problem with their father.
john
there was never much evidence of a rift. mostly hearsay. they were all gettin by.
the things that those looking into the crime bring up, such as the house stated above, are really minor money matters but they could be precursors of something big. rumor was that andrew would write a will and leave emma and lizzie on the outside. there is no evidence of this.
there is only like one police investigation in over twenty years at the residence, and that thought to be internal.
if there was lots of tension, i would think they would all be fighting, but there is no evidence of that.
so it comes down to who do you believe?
it doesn't sound to me that lizzie had a problem with her stepmother, but that emma had more of a problem. i don't really see that either had a problem with their father.
john
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Allen
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You don't see any evidence of a rift? Even though both of the Borden daughters testified that it caused one? Lizzie stopped calling her mother, something she had done up to that point. They stopped taking their meals with both of the elder Borden's after this. Emma states things were not very cordial between she and Abby after that, but thats not a rift?
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Kat
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She's right, and there are more witnesses to the rift in the family. All you need do is look at the testimony:
Alice Russell
Augusta Tripp
Mrs. Gifford
Hiram Harrington
Mrs. Whitehead
Anna Borden
as well as Emma & Lizzie mentioned.
The house deed might have been the manifestation of the interior problems in the Borden family.
Alice Russell
Augusta Tripp
Mrs. Gifford
Hiram Harrington
Mrs. Whitehead
Anna Borden
as well as Emma & Lizzie mentioned.
The house deed might have been the manifestation of the interior problems in the Borden family.
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john
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I guess if you plainly use the word "rift" I'd agree there was a rift in that house. Rift means like a "tension," and that's certainly true. The implication about the "rift," though is that it led to violence. I don't think it was of that nature, unless there's something we don't know that really grossly aggrevated it. Now is everyone assuming that Lizzie thought she would be disinherited and caused the deaths? Then the "rift" would have nothing to do with it, it would be the act of disinheritance. Every day in millions and millions of lives there are little problems that lead to nothing.
I think there was an act that was much more than a "rift." If Andrew really killed Lizzie's pidgeons I think that was an act that would (not could) provoke violence. The inheritance could have been just an aside. If she was truly evil she would have had many opportunities when she was younger to do the same thing. And now at this time she was probably calculating that since she was killing off the old man, why not take out the old lady too, and make some money. I think both Lizzie and Emma had a hatred for Mrs. Borden because of her long standing intrusion and bossivitism (i oops, sorry, I make up words) and it collapsed. Look at the time frame from the killing in the barn and the deaths and what it would take to put the plan together. I believe it was a calculated killing that worked, not some spur of the moment intrudermaniac, or Lizziemaniac thing.
Why?
- The only reason Mrs. Borden was in the guest room that morning was because of Uncle John's visit, and the visit on Monday of the "guests." The guests are as obfuscatious as the "note" Mrs. Borden got. No one ever came forward to say they'd be visiting the Bordens on Monday.
- I t happened on a day when, according to most testimony, Bridget would be out of the house that morning. If Bridget did not want to be out of the house she could have said she had things to do. So if she was sick and didn't want to be out why didn't she?
- Mr. Borden, though he may have left anyway, was directed out of the house by Lizzie to go to the post office. Again the all important post office as related to Uncle John. Puts him generally out of the house in the morning.
- This means that there is not just a scenario, that there is a created scenario - created by whom? Bridget, Lizzie knew she'd be out of the house on Thursday mornings, and perhaps participated in her being so. Uncle John - why was he there anyway, well read back on notes. Andrew, out but coming back with mail or news from the post office.
More to follow....................
I think there was an act that was much more than a "rift." If Andrew really killed Lizzie's pidgeons I think that was an act that would (not could) provoke violence. The inheritance could have been just an aside. If she was truly evil she would have had many opportunities when she was younger to do the same thing. And now at this time she was probably calculating that since she was killing off the old man, why not take out the old lady too, and make some money. I think both Lizzie and Emma had a hatred for Mrs. Borden because of her long standing intrusion and bossivitism (i oops, sorry, I make up words) and it collapsed. Look at the time frame from the killing in the barn and the deaths and what it would take to put the plan together. I believe it was a calculated killing that worked, not some spur of the moment intrudermaniac, or Lizziemaniac thing.
Why?
- The only reason Mrs. Borden was in the guest room that morning was because of Uncle John's visit, and the visit on Monday of the "guests." The guests are as obfuscatious as the "note" Mrs. Borden got. No one ever came forward to say they'd be visiting the Bordens on Monday.
- I t happened on a day when, according to most testimony, Bridget would be out of the house that morning. If Bridget did not want to be out of the house she could have said she had things to do. So if she was sick and didn't want to be out why didn't she?
- Mr. Borden, though he may have left anyway, was directed out of the house by Lizzie to go to the post office. Again the all important post office as related to Uncle John. Puts him generally out of the house in the morning.
- This means that there is not just a scenario, that there is a created scenario - created by whom? Bridget, Lizzie knew she'd be out of the house on Thursday mornings, and perhaps participated in her being so. Uncle John - why was he there anyway, well read back on notes. Andrew, out but coming back with mail or news from the post office.
More to follow....................
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Kat
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That implies that Morse came so that there would be a reason for Abby to be in the guestroom to be killed.
I used to think that was important- that Abby be killed in the guest room, but I don't think that anymore. She could have been lured to the cellar or attic and not found just as easily.
Tho the guest room was a place that supposedly Bridget never went. I can think of rooms in the house that could have been used with a very good bet that Bridget wouldn't go there within the hours of 9 to noon: If the plan was to kill Andrew before Abby's body was found- maybe even rooms in the barn.
I'm wondering about the parlour being used. Abby kept that room for herself but did Bridget ever go there? Lizzie specifically told her to go there and Bridget specifically didn't. Maybe Abby had the key?
Maybe Abby was killed in the guest room to implicate Morse.
Otherwise, maybe that was just an opportune spot timing-wise.
I used to think that was important- that Abby be killed in the guest room, but I don't think that anymore. She could have been lured to the cellar or attic and not found just as easily.
Tho the guest room was a place that supposedly Bridget never went. I can think of rooms in the house that could have been used with a very good bet that Bridget wouldn't go there within the hours of 9 to noon: If the plan was to kill Andrew before Abby's body was found- maybe even rooms in the barn.
I'm wondering about the parlour being used. Abby kept that room for herself but did Bridget ever go there? Lizzie specifically told her to go there and Bridget specifically didn't. Maybe Abby had the key?
Maybe Abby was killed in the guest room to implicate Morse.
Otherwise, maybe that was just an opportune spot timing-wise.
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john
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Wow Kat!
I never thought of the Morse implication.
Think this out - Abby was killed when the windows were supposedly to be shut (I'm thinking noise) - Andrew, and perhaps insignificantly, when they more that likely would be open again. Andrew's was a pretty quick kill though; out post haste for whoever did it.
I never thought of the Morse implication.
Think this out - Abby was killed when the windows were supposedly to be shut (I'm thinking noise) - Andrew, and perhaps insignificantly, when they more that likely would be open again. Andrew's was a pretty quick kill though; out post haste for whoever did it.
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Kat
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Note or not, you've got a point about guests.
Because if guests were coming Monday that would be a reason for Abby to be in the guest room, and a reason for her to ask Bridget to wash windows, which gets both of them, sometime Thursday (or possibly Friday or Saturday) into areas away from the common inside rooms. It sort of directs people to go do certain things as a natural course of expecting company.
But.
As I say, how could anyone know that Abby would want to clean on Thursday? We can guess she and Bridget would not clean on Sunday, but that leaves Friday & Saturday...
Someone who knew Abby might know she would respond by cleaning immediately...
Maybe a note was sent to Abby by Lizzie- Lizzie just gives her a scrawled message saying "Here this came for you." It says company is coming.
Anyway, Lizzie tells people it's not Morse or Bridget who did this. Doesn't that manage to throw suspicion onto Morse and Bridget?
Because if guests were coming Monday that would be a reason for Abby to be in the guest room, and a reason for her to ask Bridget to wash windows, which gets both of them, sometime Thursday (or possibly Friday or Saturday) into areas away from the common inside rooms. It sort of directs people to go do certain things as a natural course of expecting company.
But.
As I say, how could anyone know that Abby would want to clean on Thursday? We can guess she and Bridget would not clean on Sunday, but that leaves Friday & Saturday...
Someone who knew Abby might know she would respond by cleaning immediately...
Maybe a note was sent to Abby by Lizzie- Lizzie just gives her a scrawled message saying "Here this came for you." It says company is coming.
Anyway, Lizzie tells people it's not Morse or Bridget who did this. Doesn't that manage to throw suspicion onto Morse and Bridget?
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john
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Anyway, Lizzie tells people it's not Morse or Bridget who did this. Doesn't that manage to throw suspicion onto Morse and Bridget? - Kat
I'm not sure I understand that unless you're saying that Lizzie would be (and felt she would be) under suspicion no matter which way the dice rolled.
If Bridget and Uncle Morse were simply pawns, Lizzie might have tried to let them off the hook as best she could. I think I would personally do the same. Bridget's only involvement might have been to close the windows as a part of her job (this is certainly open, as we've seen, to conjecture) which had the effect of lessening the noise of Abby's possible scream(s) and the hacking to the close knit hood there. But juries sometimes see things differently, and if the deal went down bad, Bridget's "implication" in a capital crime would mean the rope.
Uncle John pretty well covered himself, and Uncle John also stated he didn't think Bridget had anything to do with the crimes.
The thing that always bothered me (or at first did and got me interested in this) was that Lizzie seemed to accept the accusation so cooly. There was never any "AHHH - I DIDN'T DOO IT!" and pounding on the Mayor's chest or something. It always seemed to me that she kind of knew how everything was going to happen ever since when she was standing in the doorway (thinking, I think) and called Mrs. Churchill over. If anyone in my family was even touched offensively by someone I know I'd go banannas, and, even as one who used to staunchly defend Lizzie, I must admit that the killing, or as she thought then in her mind, attack, of her Father didn't seem to bother her much, nor did she seem to worry at all if she might then be in danger herself.
Bridget too, in this respect, seems to know what's going on, perhaps innocently. Lets say you were sleeping upstairs in your house, and someone called you down and said someone was just attacked while napping on the couch. Would your first concerns be to ask a few questions and wonder how someone could have gotten in? I'd "get outta Dodge."
I'm not sure I understand that unless you're saying that Lizzie would be (and felt she would be) under suspicion no matter which way the dice rolled.
If Bridget and Uncle Morse were simply pawns, Lizzie might have tried to let them off the hook as best she could. I think I would personally do the same. Bridget's only involvement might have been to close the windows as a part of her job (this is certainly open, as we've seen, to conjecture) which had the effect of lessening the noise of Abby's possible scream(s) and the hacking to the close knit hood there. But juries sometimes see things differently, and if the deal went down bad, Bridget's "implication" in a capital crime would mean the rope.
Uncle John pretty well covered himself, and Uncle John also stated he didn't think Bridget had anything to do with the crimes.
The thing that always bothered me (or at first did and got me interested in this) was that Lizzie seemed to accept the accusation so cooly. There was never any "AHHH - I DIDN'T DOO IT!" and pounding on the Mayor's chest or something. It always seemed to me that she kind of knew how everything was going to happen ever since when she was standing in the doorway (thinking, I think) and called Mrs. Churchill over. If anyone in my family was even touched offensively by someone I know I'd go banannas, and, even as one who used to staunchly defend Lizzie, I must admit that the killing, or as she thought then in her mind, attack, of her Father didn't seem to bother her much, nor did she seem to worry at all if she might then be in danger herself.
Bridget too, in this respect, seems to know what's going on, perhaps innocently. Lets say you were sleeping upstairs in your house, and someone called you down and said someone was just attacked while napping on the couch. Would your first concerns be to ask a few questions and wonder how someone could have gotten in? I'd "get outta Dodge."
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Kat
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Uncle John also stated he didn't think Bridget had anything to do with the crimes.--john
I don't think I recall this? Could you explain this please- I'd like to know from where it comes?
And yes I think it's natural to the police and the public to be suspicious of the 2 people left alive in a slaughter. And for Morse to be suspected because he's a man. Lizzie also supposedly said she didn't think it was any of the farm men either, and of course the police jump on the train or buggy and run right out to check on the farm hands.
I'm just saying that Lizzie either stated the very obvious (it wasn't Bridget or Morse or the farm men), but when she did she could have been throwing them into the spotlight (she may not know that that was a natural suspicion of the police in their investigations)- or else by saying that it makes it sound like if she knew these people didn't do it, then she knew who did. That is very suspicious.
I don't think I recall this? Could you explain this please- I'd like to know from where it comes?
And yes I think it's natural to the police and the public to be suspicious of the 2 people left alive in a slaughter. And for Morse to be suspected because he's a man. Lizzie also supposedly said she didn't think it was any of the farm men either, and of course the police jump on the train or buggy and run right out to check on the farm hands.
I'm just saying that Lizzie either stated the very obvious (it wasn't Bridget or Morse or the farm men), but when she did she could have been throwing them into the spotlight (she may not know that that was a natural suspicion of the police in their investigations)- or else by saying that it makes it sound like if she knew these people didn't do it, then she knew who did. That is very suspicious.
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john
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Uncle John was asked if he thought that Bridget could have anything to do with the crimes, and he responded, "oh, she's just the servant girl."
More importantly, Bridget testified that they'd be having leftovers for Thursday dinner (noon) yet Lizzie testified that Mrs. Borden asked her if she wanted anything special as to meat for dinner (Thursday noon) because she'd be going shopping (Thursday A.M.). Is Abby really buying special now because she just got a note that said guests were coming on Monday, and Lizzie just screwed up in her thinking a little bit by letting that the "what do you want for dinner?" embellishment (which may very well have been true) slip?
Also, Morse testimony that he heard Abby instruct Bridget to wash the windows during breakfast leads to something else. If an integral part of a plan was to have the windows down and to be washed, and Bridget out, it would have been a stressed part of that plan trying to leave Bridget off the hook. Morse probably just overstepped himself and, possibly not sure of other testimony, and foreknowing although not for sure why, made sure that the direction to Bridget was brought in.
Again though, Morse probably didn't have a Kosher idea of what was really going on.
More importantly, Bridget testified that they'd be having leftovers for Thursday dinner (noon) yet Lizzie testified that Mrs. Borden asked her if she wanted anything special as to meat for dinner (Thursday noon) because she'd be going shopping (Thursday A.M.). Is Abby really buying special now because she just got a note that said guests were coming on Monday, and Lizzie just screwed up in her thinking a little bit by letting that the "what do you want for dinner?" embellishment (which may very well have been true) slip?
Also, Morse testimony that he heard Abby instruct Bridget to wash the windows during breakfast leads to something else. If an integral part of a plan was to have the windows down and to be washed, and Bridget out, it would have been a stressed part of that plan trying to leave Bridget off the hook. Morse probably just overstepped himself and, possibly not sure of other testimony, and foreknowing although not for sure why, made sure that the direction to Bridget was brought in.
Again though, Morse probably didn't have a Kosher idea of what was really going on.
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Pippi
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"Is Abby really buying special now because she just got a note that said guests were coming on Monday,"
In those days one would not shop for groceries 5 days prior to the meal and guests. Foods that would spoil were generally bought same day or the day prior so she wouldn't have been "grocery shopping" for guests.
Also, if guests were expected on Monday, starting cleaning on Thurs. doesn't seem that odd. Carpets were very dusty, everything was dusty and had to be swept and dusted EVERY day. Sundays or Mondays were often laundry days and a fair amount of the day would be spent with that so other cleaning wouldn't be done.
The windows are interesting...with the heat I wonder if the windows were opened at night for the breeze and cool air and closed during the day with the shades drawn to keep the house cooler...this would make a daytime murder "easier"?
In those days one would not shop for groceries 5 days prior to the meal and guests. Foods that would spoil were generally bought same day or the day prior so she wouldn't have been "grocery shopping" for guests.
Also, if guests were expected on Monday, starting cleaning on Thurs. doesn't seem that odd. Carpets were very dusty, everything was dusty and had to be swept and dusted EVERY day. Sundays or Mondays were often laundry days and a fair amount of the day would be spent with that so other cleaning wouldn't be done.
The windows are interesting...with the heat I wonder if the windows were opened at night for the breeze and cool air and closed during the day with the shades drawn to keep the house cooler...this would make a daytime murder "easier"?
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john
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Bridget said she put down the windows to wash them.
Look at the mutton regarding how long this family felt food was good, and there's no shopping on Sunday. So, true, she'd have Friday or Saturday to shop food for Monday. But she did inexplicably say that she was going food shopping even though "leftovers" were planned as of Thursday morning. What if she thought something special was going to happen in her life and she would be busy contacting her limited array of friends and relatives about it?
The guest room was, in Abby's words, to be closed up, although I do recall reading that Uncle John said he might be staying over another night. This would give double reason to clean it even though she only needed one.
All this guess work, though just makes talk of more guess work.
There are facts that can be looked at, and there is a key.
I know I've made a few posting mistakes such as mixing up the sitting room with the parlour. Where I come from if you had a parlour in your house you'd think it was roughing it if you didn't have a swimming pool. But I hope that hasn't led to thinking that I lack credence.
I'll give you something to think about, Pippi, while you're wondering where the Mellon House is exactly located - Why did Lizzie call for a doctor first, then secondly for Alice Russell?
Look at the mutton regarding how long this family felt food was good, and there's no shopping on Sunday. So, true, she'd have Friday or Saturday to shop food for Monday. But she did inexplicably say that she was going food shopping even though "leftovers" were planned as of Thursday morning. What if she thought something special was going to happen in her life and she would be busy contacting her limited array of friends and relatives about it?
The guest room was, in Abby's words, to be closed up, although I do recall reading that Uncle John said he might be staying over another night. This would give double reason to clean it even though she only needed one.
All this guess work, though just makes talk of more guess work.
There are facts that can be looked at, and there is a key.
I know I've made a few posting mistakes such as mixing up the sitting room with the parlour. Where I come from if you had a parlour in your house you'd think it was roughing it if you didn't have a swimming pool. But I hope that hasn't led to thinking that I lack credence.
I'll give you something to think about, Pippi, while you're wondering where the Mellon House is exactly located - Why did Lizzie call for a doctor first, then secondly for Alice Russell?
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Kat
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If you are honestly mixing the sitting room with the parlour, that's all you have to say. You do have some authority in your posts and so it sounds like almost a quote. We all mix up a bit. That's all I wanted to know.
Now I can ask about the memory of Uncle John saying he might stay another day. I have no experience with this.
He did supposedly say in the papers he could have left on the day he arrived. Are you referring to his "Saturday" comment to Eddy?*
Anyway, because you have a vivid presence here I will probably keep asking you specifics and if it's a false memory or I am wrong- please just feel you can say so.
Abby shopped for food every day, just about.
It's a good point about shopping Thursday tho- that Abby might think of other things she wants for guests.
But, because Lizzie is the only witness to the conversation about the note And the meat- we don't necessarily have to believe her.
*Frederick Eddy, Witness Statements, via Seaver, pg. 36:
"I said to him, after he got his eggs, 'how about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was to have to use?' 'I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get them back over Saturday morning', was the reply."
--This doesn't mean Morse would be staying at Second Street the whole time, tho, I don't think. Can you think of anyplace else this would be?
Now I can ask about the memory of Uncle John saying he might stay another day. I have no experience with this.
He did supposedly say in the papers he could have left on the day he arrived. Are you referring to his "Saturday" comment to Eddy?*
Anyway, because you have a vivid presence here I will probably keep asking you specifics and if it's a false memory or I am wrong- please just feel you can say so.
Abby shopped for food every day, just about.
It's a good point about shopping Thursday tho- that Abby might think of other things she wants for guests.
But, because Lizzie is the only witness to the conversation about the note And the meat- we don't necessarily have to believe her.
*Frederick Eddy, Witness Statements, via Seaver, pg. 36:
"I said to him, after he got his eggs, 'how about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was to have to use?' 'I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get them back over Saturday morning', was the reply."
--This doesn't mean Morse would be staying at Second Street the whole time, tho, I don't think. Can you think of anyplace else this would be?