"Liz-bian"

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:41 pm

I have the opinion that Lizzie may have indeed been gay. This opens a new way of looking at the manner of the killings/weapon etc.

Would a lesbian profile the same as a straight woman? Likewise, would a gay man the same as a straight one?

I have many gay friends and it seems to be about 50/50 with them. Some of them think they would "profile" as their biological sex and the others go the other way...

(no pun intended)

It has always intrigued me that she was a member of the tea-drinking WCTU and later received a reputed lesbian in her home. Could it have been she felt that as an outcast her choices of friends was limited? Was she open minded and more evolved than others in her time or was she finally able to express herself in a more natural (and to a lesbian it WOULD have been more natural) way???

If the Nance situation was indeed the cause of Emma's defection of Maplecroft I can only hope the price Lizzie paid was worth it to her!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:46 pm

I have always been at a loss for where the information came from that Nance was a lesbian. But I agree that if Lizzie had been gay, it would've changed things significantly in my opinion. This could throw a new light on the arguing that went on between Lizzie and her parents. It could also explain why Lizzie was described as almost a tom boyish type by some when it came to her personality. I think she was certainly anything but dainty.

monarchrn · Post by **monarchrn** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:53 pm

I agree. As I stated in another post..if she were a lesbian and her parents found out..it would cost her her inheritance. What better motive

wintressanna · Post by **wintressanna** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:01 am

I can see where some of the dynamics would be different especially considering the ramifications of the social problem of acceptance of lesbianism at that time...But Im not really sure how it would otherwise change anything. People are people, whether gay or not, and the expectations of "daintiness" of the times, as I understand it, I doubt any woman (or man for that matter) could live up to. After all, a typical way this case hooks onto the imagination seems to be surrounding the fact that someone like Lizzie had issues with the social politics of gender at the time.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:47 am

wintressanna @ Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:01 pm wrote:I can see where some of the dynamics would be different especially considering the ramifications of the social problem of acceptance of lesbianism at that time...But Im not really sure how it would otherwise change anything. People are people, whether gay or not, and the expectations of "daintiness" of the times, as I understand it, I doubt any woman (or man for that matter) could live up to. After all, a typical way this case hooks onto the imagination seems to be surrounding the fact that someone like Lizzie had issues with the social politics of gender at the time.

I agree.... I think that lesbian or not-- Lizzie was a strong willed woman accustomed to getting her way.

william · Post by **william** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:06 pm

Why assume that Lizzie was gay? There is absolutely nothing we know about the case, or Lizzie, that endorses this assumption.

This concept is right up there with the statement that all spinsters must be gay because they didn't get married. Neither supposition is supported by the available factual information.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:17 pm

She might have been gay. And it would have given her a motive for killing her father and stepmother. If it came out that she was gay or that her father knew, she would have been cut off from her inhertience, so it might have given her a reason for doing it. But there is no evidence to that fact.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:22 pm

You are right William, there is no evidence to support that she was a lesbian, but I agree with Audrey that she probably was. The only way her parents could have found out is if she was caught in the act or she confessed. I tend to believe she would have kept it a secret, and would not have taken the chance to act out any affections towards another woman in her own home right under everyone's noses.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:36 pm

I believe the issue of the possibility of Lizzie being gay has to be at least considered.

If we are "into" studying about the Lizzie Borden case, does that mean we are all "Lizbians" ?

Tracy...

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:05 pm

I agree with William. In puritan New England I'm
sure this issue was never discussed or even acknowledged to oneself,especially in Lizzie's family
and social circle. I think it has no bearing whatsoever on the case.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:18 pm

Well, if it couldn't be discussed or acted out upon for fear of shaming the family, Lizzie lived a pretty lonely existance as long as Abby and Andrew were alive. Something sure drove Emma out of Maplecroft, and it wasn't something trivial, she never came back. They stopped associating with each other. That tells me it was something pretty controversial between then.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:48 pm

I am not saying that if Lizzie was a lesbian that it would/should have bearing on the murder case per say. I think it is just something we could consider as we get to know more about our Lizzie. What she was about...etc...

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:43 pm

I agree with Melissa.... Emma didn't leave Maplecroft for a trivial reason....

Whether or not her reasons were based on Lizzie's sexuality is pure speculation..

I began this topic to discuss the fact that many do doubt a woman would use a "manly" weapon to commit a murder... But-- Would a lesbian perhaps use a manly weapon???

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:44 pm

Audrey @ Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:43 pm wrote:I agree with Melissa.... Emma didn't leave Maplecroft for a trivial reason....

Whether or not her reasons were based on Lizzie's sexuality is pure speculation..

I began this topic to discuss the fact that many do doubt a woman would use a "manly" weapon to commit a murder... But-- Would a lesbian perhaps use a manly weapon???

I do not think the axe was such a "manly" murder weapon, I think men just liked to perceive it as such. Women were supposed to be dainty mild mannered and well spoken. I believe this is why poison was consider the "woman's" murder weapon.It was less hands on, less direct. I have found some cases of women who used an axe or a similar implement to commit murder during that time.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:50 pm

crazy talk Audrey, would Lizzie be a different person if she were a lesbian? NO she would be the
same Lizzie. I remember seeing years ago one of
those horrible daytime talk shows, they led up to a
big deal about revealing that this man's son was homosexual, waiting for his reaction. Like it was to
be a big scene...and the Father just embraced his son and said "he is still the same son to me, it doesn't matter..." It makes no difference at all. After I saw that show I was thinking..what if...my
beloved son Waylon told me he was gay? I felt the
same as that Father did, I would love my son no matter what and it wouldn't make one difference.
That is why I don't think this is the issue Emma left
on, or it is an issue at all. It really has no meaning to this case.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:31 pm

Yes, but morals, values, and beliefs were different in Lizzie's time. You're talking about her as if she lived today, not in a completely different era. Homosexuality was not just taboo,it was considered a sin, and it was also against the law. Up until a certain point in time, it could be punishable by death, or life imprisonment.

http://www.rheinsieggymnasium.mynetcolo ... /wilde.htm

Homosexuality was a severe crime in the Victorian Age. Victorian society saw in sexuality only the opportunity to have children and only under the strict religious laws that required marriage for those who wanted to have children. Therefore, any other kind of sexuality was seen to be against religion and against family. Homosexuality therefore had no biological reason and was seen to be a disease and a provocation of the social system. Homosexuals were seen as perverted and bad for society, which was the reason for strict laws being enforced against homosexuality in the 19th century. Every homosexual was therefore not seen as part of society and this was the reason for Wilde to hide his homosexuality from public by all means.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An essay written in 1896 about homosexuality.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/lgbt/pme/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a site that talks about Oscar Wilde, who was a closet homosexual in victorian times.

http://www.carsonspub.com/wilde.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the first half of the 20th century, attitudes toward homosexuality were overwhelmingly negative. Homosexual activities were hidden and spoken of only in whispers, and homosexual behavior, even among
consenting adults, was a criminal offense in most of the United States. Homosexuals were subject to stereotypes and prejudice. Gay men were viewed as effeminate, lesbians were portrayed as mannish, and both were seen as being obsessed with sex, with little self-control or morality. Homosexuals frequently were thought to be potential child molesters. In the 1930s and during World War II (1939-1945) homosexuals were targets of persecution in Nazi Germany.

http://www.endallthepain.com/Homosexuality.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In society at large, however, homosexuality was still considered a crime. In one of the most notorious trials of the century, the flamboyantly gay British playwright Oscar Wilde was charged and tried for sodomy and indecent behavior in 1895. Despite his eloquent appeals for love between men, Wilde was convicted and sentenced to two years in prison and hard labor. He died penniless in 1900.

http://www.suphawut.com/gvb/gayly/gay_history6.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the mistake that some make when trying to decide whether or not Lizzie was gay is that, if Andrew and Abby found out, they might've disaproved but it would've just amounted to some arguing and some social scandal and thats it. They think about it in today's terms.Thats not the case for victorian times. It would've ruined her. It would've disgraced the family name, and quite possibly could've been a motive for murder in my opinion if it was true.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:50 pm

Although I would like to think that today most parents would be as you would be Nancie--- it just isn't so...

I really did not intend for this post to become about people's feelings about being gay... I wanted it to be about if people thought a lesbian might "profile" more masculine in choices of weapons, etc.

Melissa understood--- her opinion is that the hatchet/axe was not necessarily a masculine weapon so she thinks that Lizzie's sexuality (straight or gay) did not have anything to do with the choice of weapon (she thinks Lizzie was guilty).

I think it MAY have some effect... IF Lizzie was a lesbian, it may have made her more "manly" in her demeanor.... IF she killed the old folks-- the possibility of her being a lesbian might explain the "manly" weapon and M.O.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:23 pm

Audrey @ Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:50 pm wrote:
I think it MAY have some effect... IF Lizzie was a lesbian, it may have made her more "manly" in her demeanor.... IF she killed the old folks-- the possibility of her being a lesbian might explain the "manly" weapon and M.O.

Well, if Lizzie was a lesbian, I think it would explain alot. Especially why she never married, or was seen in the company of a man. I also think that if she was a lesbian, that really would not have had any influence on what weapon she chose. I do not think there are any real "male" or "female" murder weapons. I have a friend who is gay. A gay man, by stereotype, should be effeminate. My friend is definitely NOT. My husband has remarked he would never want to be on the wrong end of his temper he'd probably get his a** kicked. Stereotypes are bogus in my opinion. More often than not, they are wrong. As for my post, I was thinking of another thread and it carried over into this one. I think if Lizzie were a lesbian, it could very well have been the cause of Emma's leaving. It could also have driven her to kill.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:33 pm

If Lizzie was a lesbian and did the killing-- I think her sexuality may have aided her in the deed but not necessarily been a factor in why she did it...

I also tend to think Emma finding out about it might have made her leave Maplecroft... It makes sense. In her interview years later she remained totally supportive of Lizzie's innocence of the crime. If she had come to believe Lizzie was guilty would she have done that?

I am clearly stating that I think Lizzie was probably gay... I am not asserting it as a fact....

I am also stating that I think lesbianism may affect a person's personality to the point that they can cross "gender lines" when it comes to criminal profiling.

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:45 pm

Audrey @ Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:50 pm wrote:I think it MAY have some effect... IF Lizzie was a lesbian, it may have made her more "manly" in her demeanor.... IF she killed the old folks-- the possibility of her being a lesbian might explain the "manly" weapon and M.O.

The issue here is not just the gender associated with the weapon, but also the class.

Who was the most frequent user of the hatchet? Not old Andrew, but Bridget Sullivan. Chopping kindling was part of her duties. Radin mentions this as one of the reasons he believes that Bridget was guilty--Abby would have been alarmed enough to scream if she saw Lizzie carrying the hatchet, whereas Bridget could carry it with no problem.

Lizzie was ladylike, even if she was (as I am) a woman who loved women. Being ladylike doesn't preclude doing murder, any more than being lesbian does. (Not that I ever killed anybody.)

I do think using the hatchet had a dual purpose. It was revenge of a sort, since presumably it was the weapon Andrew used to kill her pigeons, and it was a deliberate red herring that Lizzie used to distract attention from her guilt. It made the crime seem like the work of a lower-class person, and probably a male one. People believed that a lady (a woman of high social standing and delicate sensibilities) just *couldn't* do things like that -- but after all, Andrew wasn't letting her live in the comfort and splendor befitting a lady. So why bother acting like one?

Lynn

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:54 pm

Abby would have thought it was normal to see Bridget sashaying into the guest room, a part of the house she seldom, if ever frequented carrying a hatchet?

I use a leaf blower in the summer to clear off my patio of glass clippings.... If I suddenly appeared on the 2nd floor of my home toting it.. I can assure you I would not be met with blasé disinterest!

I have always been amused at various authors claims that Abby would not have been shocked to see someone with a hatchet appear in a private, 2nd floor guest room of her home....

wintressanna · Post by **wintressanna** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:25 pm

Umm I kinda want to make something clear, as I understand it. I have known several gay people, lesbians and gay men, throughout my little lifetime and I have never seen any sign that being gay means that you are more like the opposite gender than the gender you were born into. Some gay relationships seem to mimic the male and female bit but those that I have known who have been the most comfortable with accepting their homosexuality accept also the beauty of their own gender. I think this is one of those heterosexual myths. I have also met some transvestites and the last thing they are is gay.

So as far as Lizzie goes, I dont think the fact that her affections may have leaned towards women rather than men would have any bearing on how she might have committed murder, she is who she is and thats how she would do it.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:32 pm

ummm...

As I clearly stated in the initial post I entered in this thread, I have asked people who happen to be gay and they are about 50/50 on the issue as to whether or not they think they conduct themselves in a more masculing/femine way in correlation with their sexual preference....

So..... Obviously you think NO would be the answer to the question..

Do you think a person who is gay may cross criminal profiling lines as we know them?

wintressanna · Post by **wintressanna** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:33 pm

Nah it probably would be unusual enough to see someone on the second floor come in with a hatchet...though it would probably be something less unusual for Bridget than for Lizzie. I can imagine in those circumstances you might ask Bridget, but be unsure of what Lizzie intended if its true what was reported about Lizzie beheading the cat and all that. Seems like Lizzie was more unpredictable than Bridget, who did as she was asked even though violently ill. but then again, what we know of Lizzie is reports collected after the crime, so its really difficult to sift out if some peoples opinions would have changed...and their reports therefore colored by that change.

And yes, I wonder if the revenge element was there. There is something about the hatchet that strikes me as curious. Supposedly the police did find a bloodied hatchet in the basement, but the blood tested out as cow's blood. Now who would have recently murdered a cow? Do you think this result was bogus or misreported? Would Dr Bowen by any chance be the one who conducted the test?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:40 pm

i have no idea, but i consider the issue actually relevant specifically insofar as it would account for her silence if she herself did not kill but knew who did and why. i can't remember which, but one of the fictionalizing authors used the theory -- that abby caught lizzie and bridget in the guest room bed?

the subject leads my thinking to something perhaps different from audreys in starting the thread. but if lizzie is concealing a murderer she is somehow involved but not necessarily the axe-handler herself. if this is the case, one plausible reason for her unwillingness to tell the truth would be shame -- which would be additional humiliation to what is already her indirect guilty anyway. once she is charged with the crime, her singular concern is getting off anyway (no kind of pun intended).

i don't know as much about the victorians as some here do, but i do gather that their perspective involved a clear distinction between public vs. private. i get the impression that it is unacceptable to admit to knowing intimate things about neighbors -- much less talk about them, for example. (i can't remember the name of that scorcese film about the repressed pain of these victorian characters--well, i think it's scorcese.)

but as far as lizzie the singular killer at the same time a lesbian -- i don't know of actual evidence. what makes her different from so many others around her? i suppose emma could just as well be a lesbian. what about morse -- maybe he's gay. perhaps lincoln was gay. i think there is a lot of confusion here that stems from the looking back at a different time. meaning just this: it looks like one thing, it's actually another, you'd have to be there.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:42 am

There is more anecdotal material on Lizzie's being familiar and comfortable using an axe/hatchet, than Bridget. Bridget says she doesn't use a hatchet. The man from the farm takes care of the kindling.

Trial
Bridget
(Sorry I don't have page #'s in my extracted testimony)
Q. Had you ever seen a hatchet with a broken handle about the premises?
A. No sir, I did not see any hatchet. I had no occasion to any of them.

Q. A hatchet with the handle broken off close to the blade of the hatchet. Had you ever seen such a thing?
A. No sir, I did not.

Q. Who did the cutting of the wood?
A. The man on the farm.

Q. Do you remember what his name was?
A. His first name was Alfred; I don't know his last name.

Q. How often did he come to do it?
A. I think he cut it over on the farm and brought it over and split it small, some of it,
down cellar.

Q. Did you have anything to do with that cutting or chopping of the wood at all?
A. No sir, I did not.

Q. You used it just as it was prepared for you?
A. Yes sir, I did.
______

It was commented upon that a "lady" might not be expected to use such a weapon, and also commented upon that there are "some cases of women who used an axe or a similar implement to commit murder during that time." I have read that the woman using such a weapon at that time was most probably and mainly found in the lower classes.
____

"...it was the weapon Andrew used to kill her pigeons..."-- That was in the movie. In testimony Lizzie says that she thought Andrew had wrung their necks. That's how you cull pigeons.

Inquest
Lizzie
82
Q. Can you tell of any killing of an animal? or any other operation that would lead to their being cast there, with blood on them? [the hatchet or axes]
A. No sir, he killed some pigeons in the barn last May or June.
Q. What with?
A. I don't know, but I thought he wrung their necks.
Q. What made you think so?
A. I think he said so.
Q. Did anything else make you think so?
A. All but three or four had their heads on, that is what made me think so.
Q. Did all of them come into the house?
A. I think so.
Q. Those that came into the house were all headless?
A. Two or three had them on.
Q. Were any with their heads off?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Cut off or twisted off?
A. I don't know which.
Q. How did they look?
A. I don't know, their heads were gone, that is all.
Q. Did you tell anybody they looked as though they were twisted off?
A. I don't remember whether I did or not. The skin I think was very tender, I said why are these heads off? I think I remember of telling somebody that he said they twisted off.
Q. Did they look as if they were cut off?
A. I don't know, I did not look at that particularly.

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:00 am

Kat @ Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:42 pm wrote:There is more anecdotal material on Lizzie's being familiar and comfortable using an axe/hatchet, than Bridget. Bridget says she doesn't use a hatchet. The man from the farm takes care of the kindling.

Thanks -- that's very clear. I should know better than to trust Radin.

Lynn

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:03 am

Haulover @ Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:40 pm wrote: (i can't remember the name of that scorcese film about the repressed pain of these victorian characters--well, i think it's scorcese.

The Age of Innocence. From the novel by Edith Wharton, who knew what she was talking about; she grew up in NY society. (A very different place, by all accounts, than the house on Second Street.)

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:05 pm

Back to Audrey's original question, I'm just catching
up on reading all the posts, such food for thought in
all of the good responses. I still don't think Lizzie
was a "lesbian" (i doubt she even knew what that
word meant) and I don't think she weilded the axe
either. Bottom line: Lizzie was unruffled, not in any
disarray that anyone reported. HOW could she have
brutally hacked two people to death without a trace of blood on her? If you were on the jury wouldn't you acquit her on that point alone?

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:24 pm

It is quite possible that Lizzie was indeed a lesbian, but latent, until she met Nance O'Neil. Emma could have seen this emerging new side to Lizzie's personality and was so uncomfortable with it she had to leave.
As far as Lizzie being tomboyish or mannish: I think that she simply admired her father enough to emulate some of his ways (being abrupt and forthright--not ladylike qualities back then), and probably picked up others simply by osmosis. She certainly wouldn't have tried to follow Abby's example or guidelines!

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:33 pm

If Lizzie was gay, I am almost certain A&A didn't know and it wasn't an issue in the family.... I just can not see Lizzie out of the clothes press to her family....

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:56 am

Yes Stuart, and Lizzie didn't have the advantage of a Coming Out or Cotillions or being invited to evenings out, soirees- to which she was entitled and to which Abby should have pushed for her. Abby didn't take Lizzie into society, and that let her down, for her future benefit.
I wonder why?

william · Post by **william** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:54 am

Audrey, to discover the reason emma left Maplecroft, we must examine a sequence of events:
1903: Rev. Edwin Augustus Buck dies.
1904: (August? September?) Lizzie and Nance meet for the first time. Nance appears at the Academy of Music in Fall River in October of the same year
1905: Against Lizzie's wishes, Emma fires Joseph Tetrault, coachman for the Borden sisters, and then leaves Maplecroft forever. Lizzie rehires Tetrault, who remains in her employ until 1908
1913: Emma gives an interview to a reporter of the Boston Post:
"The happenings at French Street that caused me to leave, I must refuse to talk about. I did not go until coditions became absolutely unbearable.
Then before taking any action I consulted Rev. Buck. He said it was imperative I move elsewhere."

Rev. Buck ddied in 1903. He advised Emma to leave French Street before that date. Nance couldn't have been the reason Emma left, since Nance and Lizzie did not meet until 1904.

It is conceivable that Emma left because she believed Lizzie and Tetrault, a notorious ladie's man, were having an affair.

diana · Post by **diana** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:27 pm

Every once in a while I think about that social note in the Fall River paper that indicates Lizzie attended a military ball. The date is January 1890 -- so she would have been 29 at the time. Lizzie's name is way at the bottom of the article -- and the names Mr. and Mrs. John Gormely also appear. I wonder if they were her neighbors, Mrs. Churchill's boarders? Here's the link. It's fun to read the descriptions of the dresses.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... ryball.htm

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:46 pm

that is interesting William, I wonder why Tetrault left
in 1908. It puts a good thorn in the side of the
Lesbian theorists anyway! I can picture Lizzie having a very sensitive side to her and having a relationship with him. Do we have any more goodies on Tetrault?

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:36 pm

Nancie @ Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:46 pm wrote:that is interesting William, I wonder why Tetrault left
in 1908. It puts a good thorn in the side of the
Lesbian theorists anyway!

I agree that the timeline makes it somewhat less likely that Emma left over Nance O'Neil. But Lizzie could be bisexual; sleeping with men doesn't preclude one from sleeping with women.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:52 pm

Though there is no physical proof that this happened, there is this blip from Agnes De Mille's Lizzie Borden, A Dance Of Death page 84:

"The New England novelist Esther Forbes tells that her father, William Trowbridge Forbes, Judge of the Probate Court in Worcester County, had a curious case at the turn of the century, of a man divorcing his wife on charges of lesbianism. The co-respondent named in the proceeding was Miss Lizbeth A. Borden of Fall River. Judge Forbes dismissed the charges as FRIVOLOUS, but the incident does point up the extreme vulnerability and notoriety in which Lizzie continued to exist."

wintressanna · Post by **wintressanna** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:19 am

was the judge paid off by lizzie or was it indeed frivolous?

william · Post by **william** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:54 am

Nancie:

Tetrault left French Street in 1908 and returned to his childhood home in Providence, Rhgde Island. He was forty-five years old; Lizzie was forty-eight.
Perhaps their romantic proclivities were beginning to wane?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:09 pm

I re-met an old high school buddy this past summer. Her name is Tetrault. After a lot of catching up, I mentioned her name connection to the Borden case. I asked her to ask her father, who was Joseph Tetrault, now in his 80's and from Rhode Island, if there was any connection?
His reply was he was Joseph Tetrault, his cousins were Joseph Tetrault, his father was Joseph Tetrault, and there were dozens of Joseph Tetraults from/in Rhode Island.
As far as he knew, none of his were chauffeurs or barbers!
I tried...

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:20 pm

That is so weird kat! Makes you wander? Did you and he grow up in Rhode Island?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:30 pm

I knew Ms. Tetrault throughout high school here in Central Florida. Her father was from Rhode Island.
I think it's a French Canadian name?

wintressanna · Post by **wintressanna** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:13 pm

yep i believe it is a French Canadian name. The closer you get to Quebec, the more often you see Tetrault Roads and such like. The name takes me back to New York State though, where there was a great TV news anchor named Ernie Tetrault. He always seemed a swell down to earth kind of guy. I really wonder where he came from.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:53 pm

There are many Tetraults in France...

It is a fairly common last name...

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:50 pm

Oh my God, wintressanna! I grew up watching Ernie Tetrault on Channel 6 News out of Schenectady, NY! He still does TV ads occasionally.
Er, apologies for the sudden OT trip down Memory Lane!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:32 am

COOL!

Everyone has a Tetrault!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:33 am

Thats so cool! I guess it's a small world after all.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

"Liz-bian"

"Liz-bian"

"There you go, always dragging class into it"