Does anyone think the number of "whacks" is signif

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:27 am

!9 "whacks" for abbey. 10 for Andrew.

I thought this obviouly showed the intense hatred for Abbey and just a little less for Andrew.

I've been thinking maybe, the numbers mean something.......maybe Im just reading to much into it It's just that to me both murders seem so calculated. Thought out. Not hurried...If they were hurried why not just one or two good "whacks".

the numbers arranged.

1910
1019
added 29

Anyone have anythoughts on this.and don't be afraid to tell me Im just thinking to deeply!

Or maybe the killer just got tired.that's alot of work...all that "whacking" lol

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:53 am

I have thought of this-- I think the # of whacks had something to do with anger, inexperience and the lesser # for Andrew was mainly since he was "face up" at the end it was easy to see the job was done.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:58 am

There are at least two schools of thought on that question - as there are regarding so many things in this case. An appropriate question which might be worth pondering momentarily is "How much foot-pound force is required to crack a human skull?" A followup is "How much foot-pound force is required to Kill both victims given their probable positions at time of death?"

Andrew for example was reclined on the sitting-room couch - more a "close-up victim" so to speak in terms of presumed relative distance from the killer. In theory at least, it took less force to do him in.

The same question applies to Abby, though her position is much harder to gauge.

What's common to both victims is definite "overkill."

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:44 am

I never thought there was too much about the number of whacks they got. Didin't think there was any significance to it. I just always thought who ever did was really mad at the Bordons.

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:36 pm

oh no theres math involved! Ill never understand it now:)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:36 pm

In the Legend movie, isn't Lizzie striking Andrew as the City Hall clock strikes the hour of 11? (Or their own clock?)
Maybe Abby was killed on stroke of 9, getting almost double in that amount of *gong* time while the clocks struck, because there was more anger & heat, all worked-up, so to speak.
Then with Andrew, 11 chimes or bells or whatever the clock noise was, minus 1? Tired out, not as *into* it?

All that clock chiming/ringing noise covering up the noise of the blows?

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:45 pm

Kat,
I like that Idea--that maybe she had a "rythmn" going:) kind of be funny if it were true.

Audree- That makes sense if he was face up..the attacker could tell when he stoped breathing.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:07 pm

I'm thinking some clocks also strike the quarter hour and the half hour, right?
(I don't have one- I don't want to be reminded of "Time" all the time).

Anyway, the hatchet blows could be timed to 9:15, as well as 9 a.m. How many chimes at a quarter hour...at half hour? Just one? If so, that won't fly.

OK let's stick to 9 and 11 a.m.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:32 pm

Would a clock that distance away chime loudly enough to cover up such a sound going on in your own home?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:52 pm

How far away do you think the City Hall clock was?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:17 am

What I was trying to get at was, unless it was a clock sitting right in or right next to the house, is it going to chime loud enough to cover up the sound of the axe swings? Exactly how loud was the chime on the clock? I just keeping thinking about the article I posted in another thread about a man in England being killed with an axe on the street. A woman who witnessed it said when she first heard the sound, she thought a child had been hit by a car.

http://www.concealcarry.org/

Avelina Rodrigues, 48, said the attacker ignored her pleas to stop as he brought blow after blow down upon his victim, leaving the body badly mutilated.

She said: "I heard the first thuds of the axe as it hit the man's head. I thought it was the sound of a child being hit by a car.

"I ran to the front of the house and could see a man, smartly dressed, tall and thin, with the axe in his hand.

"The axeman saw me but he just ignored me. He hacked his victim's head, cutting it as if it was a block of wood for a fire. His victim was unconscious on the ground, but he kept bringing his axe down on him.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:26 am

Audrey has a good point about hitting Andrew.
Have you ever visited the "Uncle John Killed Abby" site? Free trips for three to Hawaii and free Hummers.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:02 pm

Kieran in his testimony gave the distance to City Hall.
That's about 3 football fields?

Trial
Kieran
89
Q. How far is it from the Borden house to City Hall?
A. About 900 feet.
_________

Prelim
Bridget
Q. When you went up stairs, what time was it?
A. It might be four or five minutes to eleven.

Q. How do you know that?
A. By the length of time I was up stairs when it struck eleven o'clock.

Q. How soon after you got up stairs did you hear it strike eleven?
A. About three or four minutes.

Q. After you got up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did you take any notice of the fact that it struck eleven?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What notice did you take of it?
A. My clock was on the bureau.
......
Q. When you laid there, you heard the clock strike eleven?
A. Yes Sir.

_____

Trial
Bridget
Q. When is the first occasion that you had to notice the time after you got up in your bedroom?

A. I heard the bells outdoors ring, the city hall bell, as I suppose it was, and I looked at my clock and it was eleven o'clock. My clock was in the room.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:17 pm

That just establishes that it could be heard. That really doesn't answer my question as to exactly how loud it was. I would still think that a loud noise happening right inside your own home would drown out any noise coming from the outside. The City Hall Clock was about 25 yards away, halfway to the 50 yard line of a football field away is how I picture it, I have church bells I can hear ringing from a church about a block away from my house on Sundays. When they ring I can hear them, but would they drown out the noise inside my home? No.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:32 pm

You might have something Nona. People who count unnecessary things as they're doing them, such as climbing stairs, are considered "off," not by me, but by "experts" on that psycholigical subject. Certainly too, anyone who would whack two people with a hatchet would be definately "off." I don't see any significance in the numbers but they might be there - some of the people on this site look into things very deeply.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:43 pm

If Lizzie did it without Bridget's knowledge why not send Bridget out of the house, if Lizzie was at that time Lady of the house because of Mrs. Borden not being around. She could have sent Bridget to the drug store for some ointment or something, instead of having her in the house while she killed her Father.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:42 pm

Allen @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:17 pm wrote:That just establishes that it could be heard. That really doesn't answer my question as to exactly how loud it was. I would still think that a loud noise happening right inside your own home would drown out any noise coming from the outside. The City Hall Clock was about 25 yards away, halfway to the 50 yard line of a football field away is how I picture it, I have church bells I can hear ringing from a church about a block away from my house on Sundays. When they ring I can hear them, but would they drown out the noise inside my home? No.

WOW were my calculations off on that one

. Don't ask me what I was thinking cause I really don't know. I was on my sister's computer and trying to hurry and get off cause she was expecting a phone call. She is still on dial up access and cannot be on the phone and the computer at the same time. Maybe I need to take another math class

. I was thinking in terms of a football field and got mixed up with the feet and yard measurements somehow. According to Kat's post the City Hall clock was 900 feet from the Borden home. There are 3 feet in a yard. That makes it 300 yards away, or roughly 3 football fields away from the house.

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:46 pm

You might have something Nona. People who count unnecessary things as they're doing them, such as climbing stairs, are considered "off," not by me, but by "experts" on that psycholigical subject. Certainly too, anyone who would whack two people with a hatchet would be definately "off." I don't see any significance in the numbers but they might be there - some of the people on this site look into things very deeply.

..Oh, crap...I count stairs when Im going up them.......oh wait Iam a little "off" so I have an excuse.......if you knew me you'd know it was true:) Im a kooky gal:)

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:53 pm

Actually, it has been accepted that active minds are more likely to count stairs than dull ones. It really isn't even considered OCD anymore. I say-- count all you want. Active is better than dull!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:30 pm

What would you say if someone had to have everything count out to an even number. An even number of chips, and even number of M&M's...etc. If the count didn't come out to an even number, they get flustered. Just asking, I know someone like this.

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:38 pm

Thank you Audree:) Iam actaully never a dull person

Allen- do they think it's unlucky to have an uneven amount? Or maybe they have a reason which they think makes perfect sense.

example....My favorite chips are sour cream and Onion.Every chip I eat (imagine with me here) I look at and turn it over to see which side has more of the little speckled flavoring, I choose the side with the most and stick that down twards my tounge. Now when someone watches me eat these chips, turning over and over everyone before I eat it.I look like a whacko.......but really I like to have the most seasoning on my tounge, so my tastebuds......get the most out of every chip:)

See I have a reason.maybe they have a reason too? Ask. Told ya's Im kooky:)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:27 am

Jeesh Allen! I was willing to be wrong in my math, but you sure beat me to it! I'm thinking 'Aren't there 3 feet in a yard?' You shouldn't DO that to a lady of a certain age!

Anyway, if there was chiming in the house as well as at the City Hall, maybe it was some sort of noise- better than no background noise at all.

Actually I only looked up the info and posted it (why waste looking it up?) because I wasn't sure the bell could be heard at all...I thought I remembered it could...

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:46 am

Allen @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:30 pm wrote:What would you say if someone had to have everything count out to an even number. An even number of chips, and even number of M&M's...etc. If the count didn't come out to an even number, they get flustered. Just asking, I know someone like this.

Sounds like OCD to me--obsessive-compulsive disorder.It's only a problem when it interferes with daily life.

Lynn

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:10 am

Allen @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:30 pm wrote:What would you say if someone had to have everything count out to an even number. An even number of chips, and even number of M&M's...etc. If the count didn't come out to an even number, they get flustered. Just asking, I know someone like this.

I'd hate having to serve rice to that person. . .

It's certainly possible the killer, after a couple of whacks, started counting, but I doubt the final numbers had any special significance.